Dvorak's Den

[jlaurson]

It would be difficult for anyone not to like Dvorak- a superb melodic craftsman, excellent grasp of structure and wonderful orchestration! One of his works that I have really come to love is "The Golden Spinning Wheel" - crazy story, but who cares! Dvorak transforms it into a magnificent sonic experience. I have the Jarvi recording, which is splendid. I often find Jarvi too fast, but he seems perfect in this (and the other symphonic poems.

I don't know the early symphonies, however. Any input would be appreciated. thank you!

The early symphonies are mostly/all worth hearing. Some are very Wagnerian, others are proto-Brahmsish... a little less Czech/Bohemian as later Dvorak comes across. Very roughly you could group 1-5 as the early ones and 6-9 as the mature masterpieces.

The early symphonies are most conveniently, most acquired in a complete set. Here's a list of all the available Dvorak Symphony Cycles I've put together:
A Survey of Dvořák Symphony Cycles

Istvan Kertesz' has always been known for the early symphonies, but in part that's because he was the conductor who meant the first exposure of many/most (Western) ears to these works and he did a good job.
There are other cycles worth considering -- and in fact I would make one consideration that none of the symphonies (sometimes it's No.4 that suffers, as in Kertesz, sometimes No.5 [Kubelik older set, I think], or No.2 [the otherwise superb Rowicki set]) are split over two discs. That's just too annoying. But there are sets that don't do that (Kubelik in the latest, Eloquence, edition; Neumann 70s and several others I don't remember off the top of my head). Hope that helps; if you have other questions, shoot -- it's what the forum's here for as you well know. 

[PerfectWagnerite]

The early symphonies are mostly/all worth hearing. Some are very Wagnerian, others are proto-Brahmsish... a little less Czech/Bohemian as later Dvorak comes across. Very roughly you could group 1-5 as the early ones and 6-9 as the mature masterpieces.

The early symphonies are most conveniently, most acquired in a complete set. Here's a list of all the available Dvorak Symphony Cycles I've put together:
or No.2 [the otherwise superb Rowicki set]) are split over two discs. That's just too annoying. But there are sets that don't do that (Kubelik in the latest, Eloquence, edition; Neumann 70s and several others I don't remember off the top of my head). Hope that helps; if you have other questions, shoot -- it's what the forum's here for as you well know. 

Try this one, you don't get any splits, bit you get 9 symphonies on 6cds with no coupling. Is that better than splitting them up and squeeze in something extra?

[jlaurson]

...You get 9 symphonies on 6cds with no coupling. Is that better than splitting them up and squeeze in something extra?

Yes, much better!  (Well, I think so, at any rate; mjmosca may be his own judge on the matter.

[cilgwyn]

Neumann set is very interesting. Until Neumann's cycle there were no integral sets of the Dvorak symphonies. As to me? I like Jarvi's Dvorak;although I've got the original single cd releases. I think they are lively,vigorous readings with humour and atmosphere in abundance. Jarvi at his best! I like the fill-ups too,and I must say,I love the 'folksy' artwork. There's also the Suitner set,which doesn't have any side breaks. I haven't heard it,though;so I'm not in a position to recommend it. You also get the great 'Chandos' sound with Jarvi (so called,I'm a bit of a fan of their sound engineering!). Of course,if you've got an arm and a leg to spare,you've got Neumann. I've been reading all the reviews. This was the first complete cycle issued in what was Czechoslovakia. As complete cycles this is as about as authentic as it gets. Unless you have some aversion to Eastern European orchestras and sound engineering this will probably be your first choice once you have parted with the requisite dosh;although it's always interesting to hear alternative interpretations;and Jarvi is Eastern European. Not Czech I know;but it probably gives him an edge. His Martinu cycle is a case in point;although again,as Mirror Image would point out,Neumann is the real deal! And he is!! I do think some of this is subjective,however. People respond to things in different ways,to some degree. At least I hope so;otherwise we'd all be robots and there would be no threads on this forum. Everyone would just agree with each other and have the same opinions. On the plus side...no arguments!! That said;I do have a penchance for music recorded by a fellow countryman (or woman!). So I like Boult,Barbirolli,Beecham,Handley,Thomson or Hickox,say,in Elgar,VW,Bax,Delius (to varying degrees) for example. And French conductors and French orchestras performing French music,say. There's an authenticity about the interpretations,an insight and special sound. Also,there's always something about first recordings or first complete cycles. Although Kertész who got there first with Dvorak was born in Hungary. I have a certain sympathy for the reviewer's (of Neumann,Musicweb again) nostalgia for those old Supraphon recordings with their often engageing artwork (pasted on) and endearing transliterations;often unintentionally hilarious and,to be fair,never as dull and opaque as some of the ones you get from Cpo,which read like they've been typed into the translate gizmo on Google! Phew!! And you still can't beat the sheer excitement and frisson of getting your recordings over enemy lines. Exciting!! Although,not for the poor people living there!

PS: Just sell the car (if you've got one) and buy Neumann! I  just want to give my postman a break and wait for a good deal. Seriously,it really is fantasic value for the money.

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2012/July12/Dvorak_symphonies_SU40902.htm

[cilgwyn]

Symphonies split between cds are a pain;and obviously unecessary in this day & age. I'd rather pay a bit more if necessary to avoid them. Of course,people of my generation regularly had to break their a*** to lift an Lp off the record player turntable spindle and turn it over to hear side two. Although,this is coming back into fashion!! We also had to fast forward and reverse musicassettes,and even worse;physically get up off our backsides and walk across the floor to the tv to change channels,by the sweat of our own brow!!
Those were hard times!

[Jo498]

I wonder if there was a combined Supraphon Cycle pre-Neumann?
I am not sure about 1 and 2 but the others were recorded:
3 Smetacek 1959
4 Neumann 1959 (not sure if this is part of the first Neumann)
5 Sejna 1952
Talich did 6-9?, certainly 7-9 already in the 1930s. There is another 6th with Ancerl from the 1960s, 6+7 with Sejna from the same time.

I also dislike splits but the worst treated piece in my collection is Tchaikovsky's 5th. I can understand the split in a a twofer. But I have boxes where one could have (easily) managed to avoid the split and filled the 3 discs with other stuff, e.g. Silvestri and Markevitch. The Klemp romantic symphonies splits #6 (some fairness for #5).
Of course, with LPs this was just the normal way things were.

[cilgwyn]

The Neumann was the first intergral Czech cycle,according to that review on Musicweb. Without recourse to a library or any other source,at the moment,I can only assume he's correct about that. I know that in trying to find early recordings of Dvorak symphonies,by Czech conductors,on cd I haven't been able to find as much as I hoped. Ancel's 6th and 9th are fantastic. The couplings are quite special,too;but he doesn't seem to have recorded any others! I have listened to Talich,and it would nice to add Sejna to my collection....but phew,they're expensive s/h at the moment. Of course some people don't like old mono recordings. I do!!
As to Lp's. This was meant to be a humorous reference to the fact that breaks symphonic works were something that you took for granted years ago. I can't remember it ever having bothered me at the time. On the contrary,I think I actually enjoyed it!! In this respect it has occurred to me that maybe I'm just moaning about nothing. After all,it's not exactly breaking rocks in a quarry! But of course the difference with cds is.......that(fanfare!) you don't bloomin' well have to! Well,not always,anyway;and you certainly shouldn't have to in a Dvorak symphony! For one thing,it interrupts the flow.....it spoils the mood! One way I often get around it is buying the set with the break and then getting the original issue releases of the split ones. You can't do this always,and not,as far as I'm aware,with Rowicki. Unless I buy one of those (now trendy again) turntables;buy a s/h Rowicki Lp and then I'll have to turn over the d*** thing,anyway!

[Mirror Image]

Let us know when you buy the Symphonic Works (purple) set on Supraphon.

[Jo498]

I only listened to LPs (even more to MCs) for about two years, ca. 1987-88. One was simply used to it but even then I did not like having to turn sides within long movements (like Eroica funeral march). Fortunately, I did not listen to Bruckner, Mahler or Wagner yet. Those came only with the CD age...

[Madiel]

The age of iTunes has one major bonus: the ability to stitch things together from separate CDs.

Though I'd still much rather that the discs didn't have unnecessary splits. But it comes in handy for works over 80 minutes (of which there are a couple in the Sacred Works & Cantatas box).

[(poco) Sforzando]

I only listened to LPs (even more to MCs) for about two years, ca. 1987-88. One was simply used to it but even then I did not like having to turn sides within long movements (like Eroica funeral march). Fortunately, I did not listen to Bruckner, Mahler or Wagner yet. Those came only with the CD age...

Well, don't forget 78s where each side on those heavy discs was 4 minutes long. We still had some at home when I was first finding music around 1960, and to this day I still hear certain pieces in my head with breaks after each 4-minute block. Today when works are broken up between CDs, I extract the WAV files and burn my own CD.

[Jo498]

I don't think I ever listened to a 78 disc. Even the player my parents had in the late 1970s when I was a kid did only have 33 and 45 turns.
I once accidentally listened to Dorati's LP with Haydn's clock symphony at 45 and kept thinking that this was much faster than I remembered. For some reason it took quite a while until I realized the mistake and the higher pitched sound. It is so obvious with voices (we did it all the time for fun with popular music, in both directions) but if one is fairly new to the timbres of an orchestra and the overall playback equipment is not so good...

[cilgwyn]

Actually,the first ever 'record player' I owned was an old HMV wind-up gramophone. It belonged to my grandparents and they were going to get rid of it. This was in the 60's I should point out. I got my first record player in my teens. A Fidelity with a carry handle,from Woolworths. I still have the Gramophone and a tall waist high HMV I bought when I was a bit drunk!! I'd play it;but there's no volume control (an excuse for playing loud music if ever there was) and there are people next door! And there are some things on top of it at the moment, Remember when the clockwork motor ran down and you had to rush to wind it up? Allright in a power cut,mind and enviromentally friendly (no carbon footprint!) Apart from that,I'd rather listen to recordings from that era on cd. I think I did  Dvorak's Ninth on a 78;or parts of the set. I bet it was Hamilton Harty! At the time you would have probably not minded winding up the clockwork motor and having eight or more side changes. It was the music that counted and your snazzy new wind up gramophone!
Not so great in the 1970's;although strangely enough when the other village kids saw it they all wanted to have a go at playing it. They couldn't seem to get their heads around a record player that worked without electricity! Strangely enough,I've had this reaction more than once from various adults!!
Fortunately,Mirror Image and his generation don't need  to roll up their sleeves to  listen to their Dvorak collection! My biceps were pretty pumped looking,though! Although all those box sets must involve some heavy lifting?!!

Incidentally,the first ever Dvorak Ninth (or symphony for that matter) I ever heard in Lp form was Enrique Jorda conducting the New Symphony Orchestra on the Decca Ace of Clubs label. It was recorded in the Kingsway Hall in 1951. As far as I can make out it has never been released on cd;or at least the last time I looked. I notice it can be downloaded from one of those Vinyl blogs!! It was in my granparents collection and I used to play it on their Radiogram  (big wooden things like a bit like a sideboard with doors and a radio as well). Was it a particularly good performance,I don't know? I enjoyed it then. It's at my fathers house now. If I buy a turntable...........
What was your first Ninth? I can't remember which was the second recording I heard. I've got several Ninths on cd,now. It might have been Kertesz? They had them all in the library with those Breughel paintings. They looked great,incidentally.

[Jo498]

My first Dvorak 9th was on a cheapo MC (owned actually by my father or the whole family and frequently played in the car on longer drives) and I do not remember the conductor. Maybe Järvi. I think it was some Eastern European orchestra/conductor. There were a few "companion" MCs, maybe a cheap serie, it was ca. 1986. The Tchaikovsky 1st concerto was with the young Sokolov (not that I knew anything about him), there was a Liszt recital with Gilels and others? and 3 Beethoven sonatas with the Bulgarian Yuri Boukoff. I got rid of all those MCs years ago or if I didn't, I cannot find them anymore. I kept more LPs for nostalgic reasons but there is no Dvorak among those.

The first I bought on CD (much later, the MC served for years) was maybe Kubelik and I think I bought it as a gift for my younger brother....not sure anymore.
My first Dvorak CD was the Slavonic Dances with Dorati. This disc was for a while used to entertain/distract my youngest sister (then about 4 years old if my parents were away and we had to care for her and she did not want to go to bed).

[Brian]

What on earth is the structure of the Fifth Symphony's finale? It feels like an exposition and then a ton of repeats and then a coda. I've listened to this piece a million times but still haven't figured out that finale. (Not to mention the emotional disconnect from the rest of the work - though in that respect, this symphony very strongly presages Mahler's First!)

[Daverz]

Ancel's 6th and 9th are fantastic. The couplings are quite special,too;but he doesn't seem to have recorded any others!

There are live Ancerl recordings of 8.  One is in the Great Conductors of the 20th Century series.  May be the same as the recording on Tahra.

[asin]B00005UUOX[/asin]

I have listened to Talich,and it would nice to add Sejna to my collection....but phew,they're expensive s/h at the moment. Of course some people don't like old mono recordings. I do!!

If you can do digital files, http://www.supraphonline.cz/ has them very cheaply.

[Sergeant Rock]

What on earth is the structure of the Fifth Symphony's finale? It feels like an exposition and then a ton of repeats and then a coda. I've listened to this piece a million times but still haven't figured out that finale. (Not to mention the emotional disconnect from the rest of the work - though in that respect, this symphony very strongly presages Mahler's First!)

"Dvorak plunges dramatically into the Finale with a striking theme through which he not only remembers the A minor key of the second movement but also the need to consolidate the whole structure of the symphony with music set in a broader time-signature than had hitherto been employed. His ultimate goal is of course F major. But in this remarkable example of what is called 'progressive tonality' that goal is reached only after a veritable battle royal with the determined A minor key--an onslaught here parried if not overcome after 54 bars of strenuous struggle. A prolonged development follows a suave second subject in D flat. But the strenuous climaxes soon return and eventually Dvorak steers the music back to the A minor theme now reintroduced by the oboe and then followed, as a complete surprise, by the bass clarinet. From now on much of the music is either restated or varied both in tonality and orchestration as with sure steps it approaches the final F major victory." --The Symphony, Volume 1, Penguin, edited by Robert Simpson

That description probably doesn't help you. Me, I just wallow in the drama, paying no mind to any logical, or not so logical progression or structure.

Sarge

[amw]

IIRC finale of the 5th is a sonata form without development (similar to finale of Brahms 1) which derives most of its complexity from beginning the exposition and recap in the wrong key. I could be wrong.

[Madiel]

There's a development. Really, a development isn't much more than "a ton of repeats" of material set out in the exposition, varied in different ways.

[amw]

Ok yes, there is actually a development.

Structure is
exposition (first theme bars 1-80, transition bars 81-92, second theme bars 93-116, closing theme bars 117-130)
bipartite development starting at bar 131 (horn fanfare) and ending at bar 227 (bass clarinet solo)
recapitulation (first theme 228-282—the opening bars omitted and some tonal changes, transition 283-291, second theme 292-337—expanded with new material, closing theme 338-349)
coda from bar 350 (recurrence of 1st movement motive in winds)

The "sonata form without development" feeling probably comes out of the way the development section focuses exclusively on the main theme, apart from the closing theme appearing again to set up Part 2. This makes it feel like an extension of those opening 20-30 bars of the first theme that don't recur in the recapitulation. Those opening bars in turn were highly developmental in texture and harmony, so I guess I interpreted it as a feeling of "development - exposition - development 2: electric boogaloo - recapitulation".