Dvorak's Den

[vers la flamme]

I'm partial to 7 and 8, and to a somewhat lesser extent 9. I don't have much memory of the first six, though I've heard them all at least 2-3 times.

[Maestro267]

I listened to No.3 yesterday and the first movement is so full of life it ends like a finale!

[kyjo]

My favorite Dvorak symphony is the 7th but the 8th seems to be the most original and "Dvorakian". The 9th is overrated (as it is so much more famous and popular than the rest) but still very good. The 6th is still a bit underrated and very good but I don't think it is quite as good as  the later ones. The 5th is worthwhile but the first 4 are IMO skippable unless you are a fan (although #3 is formally quite original). It's not quite as extreme as with the string quartets where the first half or more can safely be skipped.

Whilst I agree with what you say about symphonies 7 through 9, I must strongly disagree about the first 4 being "skippable". In particular, the 3rd and 4th are marvelous works IMO which are very important transitional works from Dvorak's earlier "Wagnerian" phase to his inimitable mature style. Most importantly, they're filled with imaginative orchestration, innovative structure, and great melodies! And yeah, most of the early string quartets aren't really essential listening for the average listener, though they do contain some fine ideas.

[Roasted Swan]

Whilst I agree with what you say about symphonies 7 through 9, I must strongly disagree about the first 4 being "skippable". In particular, the 3rd and 4th are marvelous works IMO which are very important transitional works from Dvorak's earlier "Wagnerian" phase to his inimitable mature style. Most importantly, they're filled with imaginative orchestration, innovative structure, and great melodies! And yeah, most of the early string quartets aren't really essential listening for the average listener, though they do contain some fine ideas.

Complete agreement.  I think there is real enjoyment to be had in all 9 Dvorak symphonies.  For sure there is a sense of technical "progression" but there are many 19th Century composers who would have given their eye-teeth to write something as attractive as any of the earlier symphonies........

[ChamberNut]

I can't speak for everyone else, but I find the general dismissiveness of early Dvořák a bit nauseating.  It seems people go out of their way and focus on denigrating his early works.  Yes, this indeed happens to other composers as well, but it seems to be a focal point in Dvořák.

Carry on.

[Jo498]

Not that I wrote "unless you are a fan". Hardly surprising that it is not enough for the fans. I don't think there are many famous composers after Beethoven who have such a huge amount of published earlyish music that might be worthwhile for fans but is usually ignored except in some complete recording projects. And I don't think it is "denigrating" to mention such rather obvious things.

[ChamberNut]

Yes, thank goodness a certain small number of artists recorded early Dvořák for us 'fans'. I'm sure it must have tortured their souls to perform such a repugnant act!

[kyjo]

Complete agreement.  I think there is real enjoyment to be had in all 9 Dvorak symphonies.  For sure there is a sense of technical "progression" but there are many 19th Century composers who would have given their eye-teeth to write something as attractive as any of the earlier symphonies........

Indeed, I can think of a whole host of lesser-known Austro-German (predominantly) symphonies from the mid-19th century which are praised to the skies on a certain other forum. They have their attractions, sure, but pale in comparison to Dvorak's early ones!

[Roasted Swan]

Indeed, I can think of a whole host of lesser-known Austro-German (predominantly) symphonies from the mid-19th century which are praised to the skies on a certain other forum. They have their attractions, sure, but pale in comparison to Dvorak's early ones!

Yup!!

[DavidW]

I don't think there are many famous composers after Beethoven who have such a huge amount of published earlyish music that might be worthwhile for fans but is usually ignored except in some complete recording projects.

Perhaps Sibelius comes to mind.  Most people just listen to his orchestral works, but the BIS Sibelius Edition has an enormous amount of other works that the fans just gobble up.  But yes I get your point.

[VonStupp]

Whilst I agree with what you say about symphonies 7 through 9, I must strongly disagree about the first 4 being "skippable". In particular, the 3rd and 4th are marvelous works IMO which are very important transitional works from Dvorak's earlier "Wagnerian" phase to his inimitable mature style. Most importantly, they're filled with imaginative orchestration, innovative structure, and great melodies! And yeah, most of the early string quartets aren't really essential listening for the average listener, though they do contain some fine ideas.

In my recent Dvorak dive, Sym 4 & 7 were tops for me. Maybe it is the minor keys that I like from Dvorak, but I wouldn't miss any of the early ones. 8 & 9 are so over-familiar, they hold little surprise for me anymore.

I can't speak for everyone else, but I find the general dismissiveness of early Dvořák a bit nauseating.  It seems people go out of their way and focus on denigrating his early works.  Yes, this indeed happens to other composers as well, but it seems to be a focal point in Dvořák.

There were a few early string quartets I visited a month or so back that I decided I didn't need to visit again. In general, I think Dvorak is a consistent composer, but there is a line when everything from his pen could be a 'work of greatness', even if what came before are really enjoyable too.

VS

[Mapman]

In my recent Dvorak dive, Sym 4 & 7 were tops for me. Maybe it is the minor keys that I like from Dvorak, but I wouldn't miss any of the early ones. 8 & 9 are so over-familiar, they hold little surprise for me anymore.

I only recently listened to the 4th symphony, and was impressed as well. Anyone who likes the 7th should consider listening to the 4th. (So far, I think I liked 4 more than 5, but 5 is growing on me. I will also defend the 9th: it may be over-familiar, but I don't think it is over-rated.)

[Madiel]

It's middle Dvorak that gets short shrift, not the truly early stuff. Dvorak himself recognised that his early works had issues and either destroyed or heavily revised a lot of them. And some others that we have now were probably completely forgotten by him.

But there is a hell of a lot of work from the middle part of his career that doesn't get nearly as much hearing as it deserves. Stuff that was good enough to get Brahms' attention.

[Maestro267]

Do you have examples?

[Jo498]

I have never seen anyone praising e.g. Raff or Gernsheim over earlyish Dvorak. There are of course dedicated fans for everything, so there will be people preferring some Raff to some Dvorak (probably not me, though).
But it seems an exaggeration to complain that earlyish Dvorak (say symphonies 1-4, quartets before the E major (#8 or so, because of publication history this is also a mess, etc.) is unfairly neglected compared to niche composers like Raff.
After all we have half a dozen or more complete recordings of the Dvorak symphonies including the early ones, and also about 5 of all the early quartets.
I'd also agree that there is some "middle Dvorak" that is a bit neglected, such as the first two trios or the first piano quartet.

[Madiel]

Do you have examples?

First 2 piano trios, first piano quartet, string quartets 8 to 11, string sextet, piano and violin concertos, symphonic rhapsodies, Stabat Mater, some of the operas like Vanda and The Cunning Peasant and Dimitrij, the song cycles like Gypsy Melodies and In Folk Tone... plenty of good stuff in there.

[kyjo]

First 2 piano trios, first piano quartet, string quartets 8 to 11, string sextet, piano and violin concertos, symphonic rhapsodies, Stabat Mater, some of the operas like Vanda and The Cunning Peasant and Dimitrij, the song cycles like Gypsy Melodies and In Folk Tone... plenty of good stuff in there.

Hear, hear! Every "phase" of Dvorak's compositional career is a veritable gold mine of treasures in almost every genre.

[Maestro267]

And then there's the insufferable 3rd String Quartet. Someone try and make a defense of that. Go on, I'll wait.

[VonStupp]

And then there's the insufferable 3rd String Quartet. Someone try and make a defense of that. Go on, I'll wait.

I like it better than the 2nd, which I don't like at all.
VS

[kyjo]

And then there's the insufferable 3rd String Quartet. Someone try and make a defense of that. Go on, I'll wait.

Well, you've reminded me that I actually need to sit down and listen to that piece...