Dvorak's Den

Started by hornteacher, April 07, 2007, 06:41:48 AM

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Mirror Image

#600
Quote from: vers la flamme on May 11, 2020, 02:30:24 PM
I must confess that I don't "get" Dvořák. He might be the only one of the major composers that just doesn't do much for me. I used to like his New World symphony, but I burned it out pretty quickly and in any case, I don't have it on CD at the moment. The only works of his that I actually do like somewhat are the B minor Cello Concerto & the E major string serenade, though I prefer his student Suk's work in that genre. I found myself especially unimpressed with the string quartets but I owe them a more serious listen; he left behind a formidable cycle.

I'm planning on checking out the piano & violin concertos and taking it from there. I do think he is a great composer and I hope his work clicks with me some day. Seeing this thread has made me want to revisit one of his works so I shall do that soon—I'm thinking maybe the 7th or 8th symphony, both of which I have on CD. I will probably get the Kertész cycle of the symphonies some day. I like the sound of it, what I've heard anyway.

The later SQs are where it's at. The earlier SQs are much like Sibelius' earlier ones in the that they don't really reveal or give insights into the composer's musical voice, but even then, there still can be some good music found in these works. A lot of times, also, it's a matter of spending some time away from the composer, which can have a reverse effect, too, but I have found that if I don't enjoy a composer's music initially that if I leave that door open, then maybe someday I'll get it. There has always been something special about Dvořák, especially whenever I heard the much too performed 9th symphony for the first-time. One of the things I did was avoid the classical 'hits' and stuck to my own musical journey. Quite frankly, I don't care how popular a work is, if I enjoy it and get gratification from it, then nothing will get in the way of that. The Cello Concerto is another oft-mentioned and recorded work, but it's a stunning piece of music. I think sometimes the hype is real and is justified --- both of the afore mentioned works are a case in point. I'm not sure why you don't enjoy Dvořák's music that much. Several reasons why I enjoy it are for its earthiness, soulfulness, vitality and, most of all, beauty. Also, I just love these composers who were influenced by the folk music of their native countries and find ingenious ways of incorporating that world into their own music and make it their own. I say listen to more of his chamber music and if you haven't heard any of his symphonic poems. then check those works out as well. There's so much to explore within his oeuvre that sometimes I just feel like a kid in a candy store.

bhodges

Quote from: Madiel on May 11, 2020, 03:08:21 PM
My advice is don't start at the start. For example some of the first half dozen string quartets are frankly pretty tiresome. It took Dvořák some years to click into his style.

You'd be on safe ground with the 7th/8th symphonies though (and ones earlier than that).

Quote from: Mirror Image on May 11, 2020, 03:20:17 PM
The later SQs are where it's at.

Yes, to all of this. Do give the 7th and 8th symphonies a whirl (I also love the Sixth), as well as the later quartets. Those are so tuneful and catchy, it's easy to overlook how damn difficult they are to play.

--Bruce

Mirror Image

Quote from: Madiel on May 11, 2020, 03:08:21 PM
My advice is don't start at the start. For example some of the first half dozen string quartets are frankly pretty tiresome. It took Dvořák some years to click into his style.

You'd be on safe ground with the 7th/8th symphonies though (and ones earlier than that).

Rather sound advice right there.

Madiel

Quote from: Mirror Image on May 11, 2020, 04:45:24 AM
Here's a question for my fellow Dvořákians: what recording(s) of the songs/lieder would you recommend?

I've been looking at the following:











Thanks in advance. It seems the songs and the solo piano music are the only things I'm missing from my Dvořák collection. I'm missing almost all of the operas except Rusalka, which I have conducted by Václav Neumann on Supraphon. It seems he composed many operas and many of them are difficult to obtain, so I won't even try. ;)

You'll see my comments on the Fink 'songs' album elsewhere, though on a 2nd sampling I think I like her more than the first time. And I was reasonably happy the first time!

But I came back here to also say Peckova sounds, from the briefest sampling, to be a very nice singer.

However, the older 'Biblical Songs/Gypsy Songs' album, I'm not fond of when comparing it to newer recordings. I'm beginning to think that the reason I find the piano version of Biblical Songs to be slightly heavy going is that performance.

I've been sampling half a dozen other things too, and been pleasantly surprised at just how many singers sound quite good in this repertoire. I didn't really come across any duds.

Also, I've FINALLY been able to get the tiniest sample of this album:



Which is of interest to me because it mostly has rarer songs, some otherwise impossible to get. The one track I got to sample of one of the two main singers was very nice. So I might be hunting down a copy. (The album is on Spotify, but restricted to certain countries)
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Mirror Image

I appreciate you doing some of the heavy-lifting, Madiel. 8) I liked what I hear from Pecková. She has a nice voice. She does a fine job on this Martinů recording:



But I'm glad I went with the Bernard Fink recordings of Dvořák lieder. 8)

Madiel

#605
In my attempts to narrow down some song cycle choices, I listened to 5 women singing In Folk Tone, and then noticed all 5 also sang the Gypsy Songs.

All 5 of these are pretty good you understand. The bad-sounding ones didn't get as far as the comparison! Nevertheless I did develop a bit of a ranking. And really I think the top 2 are the ones I'm most seriously considering.

1. Marta Infante / Jorge Robaina

2. Bernarda Fink / Roger Vignoles

3. Barbara Ulricca Theler / Bruno Canino

4. Dagmar Peckova / Irwin Gage

5. Olga Stepanova / Frantisek Maly
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Mirror Image

Excellent, Madiel. Appreciate you doing this survey. It appears that I made a good choice in the Fink/Vignoles. 8)

Madiel

Quote from: Mirror Image on May 13, 2020, 02:37:45 PM
Excellent, Madiel. Appreciate you doing this survey. It appears that I made a good choice in the Fink/Vignoles. 8)

Yes, I think you did. Though as you can see she's not currently my first choice. After this the programs of my top 2 diverge somewhat.

I haven't even brought the men in yet... some men do the Gypsy Songs (and indeed the very first performer appears to have been male) though none of them seem to do In Folk Tone.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Mirror Image

Quote from: Madiel on May 13, 2020, 02:44:26 PM
Yes, I think you did. Though as you can see she's not currently my first choice. After this the programs of my top 2 diverge somewhat.

I haven't even brought the men in yet... some men do the Gypsy Songs (and indeed the very first performer appears to have been male) though none of them seem to do In Folk Tone.

Very nice, indeed. I can't wait to get those Fink recordings.

Madiel

#609
After more streaming (males singing the Gypsy Songs, both genders singing the Biblical Songs)... I think I've got the list of song recital albums I'm interested in down to six.

Which is still too many!

Though in some cases whether or not I can even get a hold of them might end up being a factor.

I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

kyjo

Cross-posted from the WAYLT thread:



This is one of those instances where I find myself repeatedly asking: "Why did I wait so long to listen to this??". This is absolutely glorious music; I really don't have enough superlatives to describe it!! It confirms Dvořák's status as one of my most cherished composers, perhaps my most cherished. Really, this is more like a gigantic tone poem with voices than an opera; it all flows so seamlessly and organically, with the glittering strands of Dvořák's masterly orchestration driving the action. And I really can't imagine a more magnificent recording that the one here. Discovering music like this is why I will always - as the Hurwitzer says - "keep on listening"! :) :)
"Music is enough for a lifetime, but a lifetime is not enough for music" - Sergei Rachmaninoff

Madiel

Quote from: kyjo on October 11, 2020, 08:26:39 PM
Cross-posted from the WAYLT thread:



This is one of those instances where I find myself repeatedly asking: "Why did I wait so long to listen to this??". This is absolutely glorious music; I really don't have enough superlatives to describe it!! It confirms Dvořák's status as one of my most cherished composers, perhaps my most cherished. Really, this is more like a gigantic tone poem with voices than an opera; it all flows so seamlessly and organically, with the glittering strands of Dvořák's masterly orchestration driving the action. And I really can't imagine a more magnificent recording that the one here. Discovering music like this is why I will always - as the Hurwitzer says - "keep on listening"! :) :)

Yeah, I saw your original post, and this recording (almost universally praised) has been sitting in one of my queues for forever waiting to be listened to. I needed a break between Dvorak operas. Best get back to it then. It helps that I should be able to access a libretto, now. Come to think of it, I should go back to the earlier ones with a libretto to hand.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Scion7

I was sitting at the ER parking lot at Duke University Hospital (a girlfriend's friend's mother is dying) and listened to the seventh symphony rendered by Jarvi and the Scottish National Orchestra - had not heard this piece in quite some time - delightful experience for an awful time.  I returned home after an hour - awaiting word.  Brahms - like so many others - saw the inspired spirit within Dvorak - this is a prime example of his creativity.
When, a few months before his death, Rachmaninov lamented that he no longer had the "strength and fire" to compose, friends reminded him of the Symphonic Dances, so charged with fire and strength. "Yes," he admitted. "I don't know how that happened. That was probably my last flicker."

Pohjolas Daughter

Quote from: kyjo on October 11, 2020, 08:26:39 PM
Cross-posted from the WAYLT thread:



This is one of those instances where I find myself repeatedly asking: "Why did I wait so long to listen to this??". This is absolutely glorious music; I really don't have enough superlatives to describe it!! It confirms Dvořák's status as one of my most cherished composers, perhaps my most cherished. Really, this is more like a gigantic tone poem with voices than an opera; it all flows so seamlessly and organically, with the glittering strands of Dvořák's masterly orchestration driving the action. And I really can't imagine a more magnificent recording that the one here. Discovering music like this is why I will always - as the Hurwitzer says - "keep on listening"! :) :)
Nice to hear your praise of this wonderful recording.  And so happy to read that you also are a big lover of Dvorak's music overall.  ;D

PD
Pohjolas Daughter

Roasted Swan

Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on October 12, 2020, 03:23:37 PM
Nice to hear your praise of this wonderful recording.  And so happy to read that you also are a big lover of Dvorak's music overall.  ;D

PD

Absolutely +1 for this work and this recording.  But I would also strongly recommend hearing Neumann Czech PO recording which with Czech singers has that extra tang of authenticity.  The was one of Supraphon's quite early attempts at digital recording and I they 'borrowed' Denon's tech.  Whatever the truth of that, the actual recording is technically fine too if not quite in the Decca class. 

I think the tone-poem is a good analogy all the more so because of course around this point in his career (past the 100 Opus mark) Dvorak was exploring folk-tales as inspiration for his late tone-poems not only due to the narrative element but the way in which he deployed musical rhythms to mimic the word patterns of the Erben poems.  This pre-dates the likes of Janacek who also sought to write music that more closely followed speech patterns rather than the speech being distorted to "fit" the music.


Symphonic Addict

My only meeting with Rusalka was on DVD, but it was with that "modern" staging which I didn't like at all, and it put me off. I need to listen to it again.
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Daverz

Quote from: Symphonic Addict on October 15, 2020, 09:59:59 AM
My only meeting with Rusalka was on DVD, but it was with that "modern" staging which I didn't like at all, and it put me off. I need to listen to it again.

Also avoid the Chalabala DVD, which is a lip-synched film and pretty awful.

Roasted Swan

Quote from: Symphonic Addict on October 15, 2020, 09:59:59 AM
My only meeting with Rusalka was on DVD, but it was with that "modern" staging which I didn't like at all, and it put me off. I need to listen to it again.

I saw a deeply tasteless modern staging on DVD which linked this most magical and beautiful of works with the appalling and sad story of Josef Fritzel who locked his daughter in a cellar for 8 years and abused her.  I'm fairly open to contemporary restagings of great work but that genuinely made me very angry.

kyjo

Quote from: Roasted Swan on October 14, 2020, 06:42:09 AM
Absolutely +1 for this work and this recording.  But I would also strongly recommend hearing Neumann Czech PO recording which with Czech singers has that extra tang of authenticity.  The was one of Supraphon's quite early attempts at digital recording and I they 'borrowed' Denon's tech.  Whatever the truth of that, the actual recording is technically fine too if not quite in the Decca class. 

I think the tone-poem is a good analogy all the more so because of course around this point in his career (past the 100 Opus mark) Dvorak was exploring folk-tales as inspiration for his late tone-poems not only due to the narrative element but the way in which he deployed musical rhythms to mimic the word patterns of the Erben poems.  This pre-dates the likes of Janacek who also sought to write music that more closely followed speech patterns rather than the speech being distorted to "fit" the music.



Thanks RS, I'll have to check out the Neumann recording. Regarding your second point, I can't help but wonder what masterpieces Dvorak would have produced had he lived another 10-15 years. As evidenced by his late works such as Rusalka, the final tone poems, and the last two string quartets, he was continuing to refine and develop his style to be more complex and colorful - without sacrificing his innate melodic gift - and to wondrous results.
"Music is enough for a lifetime, but a lifetime is not enough for music" - Sergei Rachmaninoff

kyjo

Quote from: Symphonic Addict on October 15, 2020, 09:59:59 AM
My only meeting with Rusalka was on DVD, but it was with that "modern" staging which I didn't like at all, and it put me off. I need to listen to it again.

Oh yes, you must give it another try! Considering you're a huge Dvorak admirer like I am, you can't afford to miss out on one of his masterpieces (like I did for years ::)).
"Music is enough for a lifetime, but a lifetime is not enough for music" - Sergei Rachmaninoff