Dvorak's Den

[Opus106]

[T]he Seventh Symphony [has a] really peculiar ending.

Could you elaborate, please?

[raduneo]

The 9th is my least favorite as well. The 8th is my favorite; I hear much that's original there, because it sounds so honest and so true in a way that's hard to pin down.

Some of Dvorak's other best stuff in that vein - the string quartets 12-14, the string quintets and sextet, the Othello overture, the cello concerto, the fantastic Te Deum. I find a lot of his most original strokes to be his odd endings. Othello, the cello concerto, the Seventh Symphony, and the Noon-Day Witch all have really peculiar endings. Of course, now that I've mentioned it, the four symphonic poems - Water Goblin, Noon-Day Witch, Golden Spinning-Wheel, Wild Dove - are probably Dv's most 'original' orchestral works.

Yes, I myself would appreciate more details. Dvorak is one of the few great romantics I did not get into yet. And I am definitely open to learnng! Of course he will not be able to replace Janacek as the greatest Czech composer for me, but still.

[Brian]

Could you elaborate, please?

Whoops! Didn't see this for a long while.

I always thought the Seventh Symphony had an apocalyptic, nightmarish ending, and then I started reading CD notes and GMG comments about there being a happy, even triumphant final coda to the symphony. I don't hear that at all. The final movement works itself into such an elaborate, desperate hysteria (favorite moments: the quiet passage in the development with snarling trombones, the explosive recap with its hyperactivity) that I don't know how it could come back from the edge of the cliff it's put itself on. The final coda, with its mad rush to those repeated chords, sounds to me not like victory but like submission - ultimate defeat, one last cry of pain before hurling itself over the edge. It's so headlong, so abrupt, so logical an ending but also so severed from what came before (unless you hear in it, as I do, an echo of the French horn tune that is played once and once only, at about 75 seconds into the first movement!).

raduneo, the connection with Janacek is definitely most clear in the symphonic poems. If you haven't heard them, try this glorious CD:

[asin]B0032Z1IG0[/asin]

They explore a new musical language Dvorak was working out at the end of his life, and if he didn't quite fulfill its potential, he did lead the way for Janacek, somewhat, with each work's insistence on 1-2 motifs developed and restated in huge numbers of different ways over spans of 15-25 minutes. The orchestration is also wilder and more primitive, with lots of bass clarinet and suspended cymbals. The Wild Dove's first performance was conducted by Janacek; then it was performed in Vienna by Mahler.

My review of the CD mentioned above: "The opening seconds of Golden Spinning Wheel, with the motoric cellos coupled to gentle cymbal crashes, are almost impossible to resist. This is the longest symphonic poem and the only one with a happy ending; Mackerras turns in the best performance I've ever heard. Here are sharp, precise rhythms, resplendent strings in the love music and an operatic pace which generates increasing excitement and drama as the piece proceeds..." etc.

[raduneo]

Whoops! Didn't see this for a long while.

I always thought the Seventh Symphony had an apocalyptic, nightmarish ending, and then I started reading CD notes and GMG comments about there being a happy, even triumphant final coda to the symphony. I don't hear that at all. The final movement works itself into such an elaborate, desperate hysteria (favorite moments: the quiet passage in the development with snarling trombones, the explosive recap with its hyperactivity) that I don't know how it could come back from the edge of the cliff it's put itself on. The final coda, with its mad rush to those repeated chords, sounds to me not like victory but like submission - ultimate defeat, one last cry of pain before hurling itself over the edge. It's so headlong, so abrupt, so logical an ending but also so severed from what came before (unless you hear in it, as I do, an echo of the French horn tune that is played once and once only, at about 75 seconds into the first movement!).

raduneo, the connection with Janacek is definitely most clear in the symphonic poems. If you haven't heard them, try this glorious CD:


They explore a new musical language Dvorak was working out at the end of his life, and if he didn't quite fulfill its potential, he did lead the way for Janacek, somewhat, with each work's insistence on 1-2 motifs developed and restated in huge numbers of different ways over spans of 15-25 minutes. The orchestration is also wilder and more primitive, with lots of bass clarinet and suspended cymbals. The Wild Dove's first performance was conducted by Janacek; then it was performed in Vienna by Mahler.

My review of the CD mentioned above: "The opening seconds of Golden Spinning Wheel, with the motoric cellos coupled to gentle cymbal crashes, are almost impossible to resist. This is the longest symphonic poem and the only one with a happy ending; Mackerras turns in the best performance I've ever heard. Here are sharp, precise rhythms, resplendent strings in the love music and an operatic pace which generates increasing excitement and drama as the piece proceeds..." etc.

Thank you Brian! I ordered that disc!

I finally found the best interpretation of his Piano Concerto: Firkusny/Kubelic, on a disc with the 8th Symphony.



It may not be the best sound quality, but it is so exciting thta you forget about it (I know I did)! I agree with the reviewer on Amazon:

"This is perhaps the most underrated of all concerti--breathtakingly impassioned and heroic, and heart-renderingly lyrical, it leaves the listener exhausted. It's in a league with only Beethoven's 5th "Emperor," and Brahms's 1st, piano concerti. It combines their heroism with Schubertian lyricism.

So, this concerto requires a performance which encompasses these traits, and only the present entry succeeds 100%. Each of the other Firkusny recordings of the work is also good, but only this performance has a total sense of abandon, utmost intensity. The recorded sound is fair-to-poor, with over-emphasis on the piano, and probably this live recording wouldn't have been issued at all if the performance didn't blow away all the competition as it does. This is a CD for music-lovers, but certainly not for audiophiles."

[Opus106]

Whoops! Didn't see this for a long while.

I always thought the Seventh Symphony had an apocalyptic, nightmarish ending, and then I started reading CD notes and GMG comments about there being a happy, even triumphant final coda to the symphony. I don't hear that at all. The final movement works itself into such an elaborate, desperate hysteria (favorite moments: the quiet passage in the development with snarling trombones, the explosive recap with its hyperactivity) that I don't know how it could come back from the edge of the cliff it's put itself on. The final coda, with its mad rush to those repeated chords, sounds to me not like victory but like submission - ultimate defeat, one last cry of pain before hurling itself over the edge. It's so headlong, so abrupt, so logical an ending but also so severed from what came before (unless you hear in it, as I do, an echo of the French horn tune that is played once and once only, at about 75 seconds into the first movement!).

Thanks, Brian. Both of us pretty much share the same view of the finale of the Seventh. I often conjure images of Don Giovanni falling into the Nether World as the work comes to a close. I'll play close to attention to the french horn tune the next time I listen.

[Brian]

raduneo - what a great coincidence! I just got the Firkusny/Kubelik recording in the mail last week.

I often conjure images of Don Giovanni falling into the Nether World as the work comes to a close.

Oh that's fantastic. I'll keep that image in mind, it fits perfectly!

[eyeresist]

I finally found the best interpretation of his Piano Concerto: Firkusny/Kubelic, on a disc with the 8th Symphony. [asin]http://www.amazon.com/Dvorak-Piano-Concerto-Symphony-Kubelik/dp/B0006OGXMO[/asin]

Raduneo, you messed up the ASIN link. Just put the ASIN number between the tags, not the whole Amazon link.

[raduneo]

Raduneo, you messed up the ASIN link. Just put the ASIN number between the tags, not the whole Amazon link.

I changed it eyeresist, but the image is still not showing up.

[eyeresist]

I changed it eyeresist, but the image is still not showing up.

Ah. In that case, there's a little trick some of us have learned:

Go to the relevant Amazon page, and look for the text that appears below the image you want to use (usually the text says "See larger image", but in this case it's "Share your own related images"). Select and copy this text (Ctrl-C).

Right-click on the page and select "View Source".
A new window will appear, containing the source code of the Amazon page - it can take a minute to load.

When the new window has loaded, press Ctrl-F, which will cause the "Find" box to pop up.
Paste the text you copied from the Amazon page into this box, by simply pressing Ctrl-V.
Press Enter/Return to search.

The Find function will find the phrase you selected in the source code. Once you have found it, simply look at the text before this phrase to find the address of the image you want. It always starts with "http://" and ends with ".jpg". In this case it is http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51251KZW7ZL.jpg.

Select and copy the image address, and then paste it into your GMG reply. Make sure to remove the inverted commas that surround this address!
Select the address in your reply, and then click the "Insert image" button:

Now the image will appear!

To turn it into a link, simply select the image address AND image tags that surround it, and then click the "Insert hyperlink" button
In the opening link tag "[ url ]", insert an equals sign = after "url" and then the Amazon page address.

[raduneo]

Ah. In that case, there's a little trick some of us have learned:

Go to the relevant Amazon page, and look for the text that appears below the image you want to use (usually the text says "See larger image", but in this case it's "Share your own related images"). Select and copy this text (Ctrl-C).

Right-click on the page and select "View Source".
A new window will appear, containing the source code of the Amazon page - it can take a minute to load.

When the new window has loaded, press Ctrl-F, which will cause the "Find" box to pop up.
Paste the text you copied from the Amazon page into this box, by simply pressing Ctrl-V.
Press Enter/Return to search.

The Find function will find the phrase you selected in the source code. Once you have found it, simply look at the text before this phrase to find the address of the image you want. It always starts with "http://" and ends with ".jpg". In this case it is http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51251KZW7ZL.jpg.

Select and copy the image address, and then paste it into your GMG reply. Make sure to remove the inverted commas that surround this address!
Select the address in your reply, and then click the "Insert image" button:

Now the image will appear!

To turn it into a link, simply select the image address AND image tags that surround it, and then click the "Insert hyperlink" button
In the opening link tag "[ url ]", insert an equals sign = after "url" and then the Amazon page address.

It is done. Thanks!!!

[eyeresist]

It is done. Thanks!!!

Well done, my apprentice

[madaboutmahler]

Dvorak has always been a very special composer to me, as it were his Slavonic Dances that got me into music in the first place really. I have been listening regularly to his music ever since of course, but it's only recently that I have been realizing that Dvorak really is a favourite of mine. I do really feel a massive connection with his music.

A piece I have been enjoying very much recently is the Cello Concerto as it was one of the pieces that the Academy orchestra were playing this term, giving their concert including it today. It was superb! A piece that I have heard before of course, but only now have I got to know it to this level. I am shocked to see that I do not have a recording of it in my collection... could someone recommend me one please?

Also, I must explore Dvorak's choral works. And more of the chamber music too. On the listening pile at the moment, I have the Kubelik 3cd set of all the tone poems/Slavonic Dances etc which I am very excited to listen to.

[North Star]

Dvorak has always been a very special composer to me, as it were his Slavonic Dances that got me into music in the first place really. I have been listening regularly to his music ever since of course, but it's only recently that I have been realizing that Dvorak really is a favourite of mine. I do really feel a massive connection with his music.

A piece I have been enjoying very much recently is the Cello Concerto as it was one of the pieces that the Academy orchestra were playing this term, giving their concert including it today. It was superb! A piece that I have heard before of course, but only now have I got to know it to this level. I am shocked to see that I do not have a recording of it in my collection... could someone recommend me one please?

Good to see you enjoying Dvorak, Danny!
Queyras's Dvorak is something I've been wanting for some time, but I don't have it, so I can't really recommend it. On a general level, I can recommend Queyras, though.
[asin]B000B6FAEO[/asin]

Dvorak's later string quartets, piano quintets, piano trios are great music. I do hope you've heard that stuff.

[Sergeant Rock]

A piece I have been enjoying very much recently is the Cello Concerto as it was one of the pieces that the Academy orchestra were playing this term, giving their concert including it today. It was superb! A piece that I have heard before of course, but only now have I got to know it to this level. I am shocked to see that I do not have a recording of it in my collection... could someone recommend me one please?

Like Bogey, I've heard good things about Queyras but haven't heard it. My favorites:


CELIBIDACHE SWEDISH RADIO DU PRÉ
MAAZEL BERLIN PHIL YO-YO MA
DAVIS CONCERTGEBOUW    SCHIFF
SZELL BERLIN PHIL FOURNIER

Of the four, I'd say go for Szell/Fournier.

Sarge

[madaboutmahler]

Thank you both Karlo and Sarge for your recommendations!
I had a listen to some of the amazon excerpts from some of the ones you recommended. The Queyras, despite not approving of the triangle (!), sounded superb. Certainly one I would be interested in getting.
I thought that you may recommended Szell, Sarge! That one sounds really good too, and is available very cheaply on the Amazon MP!

Hopefully shall be able to purchase some of these recordings in the future. Hoping to be able to make another purchase soon, which will include much Dvorak, some Schuman and Shostakovich.

[North Star]

Like Bogey, I've heard good things about Queyras but haven't heard it.

So that makes three of us, eh?


Karlo

[Karl Henning]

Like Bogey, I've heard good things about Queyras but haven't heard it. My favorites:


CELIBIDACHE SWEDISH RADIO DU PRÉ
MAAZEL BERLIN PHIL YO-YO MA
DAVIS CONCERTGEBOUW    SCHIFF
SZELL BERLIN PHIL FOURNIER

Of the four, I'd say go for Szell/Fournier.

No love for the Slava/London Phil/Giulini, Sarge?

[Bogey]

My top three, but I have a handful more on the shelf and I must say I have never heard a recording of this piece that I did not care for. (And thanks to Karl for mentioning the first one here many moons ago.) :

[nico1616]

Another vote for this classic. Rostropovich and Von Karajan are a superb match!

[Opus106]

No love for the Slava/London Phil/Giulini, Sarge?

No love for Slava and your home band, Karl? I have that and the über-famous one with the Berlin Phil. and Karajan. I think I'll give the former a spin today, since it's been a long time.

Daniel, the box I've linked to also contains Ilaria's favourite version of The Dances.