Dvorak's Den

Started by hornteacher, April 07, 2007, 06:41:48 AM

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Madiel

I think I'm going to have to calculate my "Burghauser limit"  :D That is, the boundary between works I'm happy to listen to and the early ones that aren't as attractive.

I know I'm very happy with the first piano trio and first piano quartet (B.51 and B.53), plus there's the Serenade for strings (B.52). So that makes the 5th symphony safe territory.

I'm pretty sure I like the 7th string quartet (B.45). I'll have to go back and revisit the 5th and 6th quartets (B.37 and B.40)... better than the even earlier ones, but Dvorak himself found those works problematic. The 4th symphony is B.41 so it really is in that border region!
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Brahmsian

Quote from: orfeo on September 26, 2014, 10:01:58 PM
The 4th symphony is B.41 so it really is in that border region!

The 4th Symphony isn't border line.  Don't focus so much on the number or earliness.  Just listen.  It is beautiful and sumptuous.  :)

North Star

Well, I listened to the 3rd and 4th today, and found them both very enjoyable. :)
"Everything has beauty, but not everyone sees it." - Confucius

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Cato

Joseph Horowitz in the Oct. 30, 2014 Wall Street Journal wrote an essay about Dvorak's American Suite, and why it should not be neglected.

An excerpt:

QuoteThe main reason we are not aware of this music is that for decades Czech and British Dvorak scholars denigrated it as inscrutable and insipid—and so it is, unless its Americanisms are recognized. That they were not was illustrated to me when I met a Czech pianist who had long played the "American" Suite in complete innocence that Dvorak very obviously has the piano imitate the characteristic sounds of a banjo. I can also remember reading an album note for a Nonesuch recording in which an American music critic, influenced by extant scholarship, off-handedly acknowledged that Dvorak's Op. 98 was not identifiably "American."

Certainly the "American" Suite has lacked inspired advocacy. But no longer. A new Harmonia Mundi recording by the young American James Gaffigan with Switzerland's Lucerne Symphony (of which he is chief conductor) is revelatory. Mr. Gaffigan has not unearthed the "American" Suite as a novelty for curious inspection; rather, he brandishes it as a true believer. The suite is here vindicated as top-drawer Dvorak—albeit Dvorak in a foreign tongue (the Symphony No. 6, on the same CD, seems like music by another composer)
.


See:

http://online.wsj.com/articles/new-song-for-the-new-world-on-antonin-dvoraks-american-suite-1414620680?KEYWORDS=Dvorak
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

kishnevi

Good Lord!  Even when talking about Dvorak, New York can not overcome its feelings of inferiority to Boston!
The CD I assume us this one.

Karl Henning

Quote from: Cato on October 30, 2014, 06:36:12 PM
Joseph Horowitz in the Oct. 30, 2014 Wall Street Journal wrote an essay about Dvorak's American Suite, and why it should not be neglected.

An excerpt:


See:

http://online.wsj.com/articles/new-song-for-the-new-world-on-antonin-dvoraks-american-suite-1414620680?KEYWORDS=Dvorak

Thanks for this . . . it's a piece which I have neglected, following the herd.  But I shall check it out!
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

TheGSMoeller

Quote from: ChamberNut on September 26, 2014, 10:06:57 PM
The 4th Symphony isn't border line.  Don't focus so much on the number or earliness.  Just listen.  It is beautiful and sumptuous.  :)

Ray is correct. I've been listening to the 4th more than any of Dvorak's symphonies the past few months. I now don't categorize it, or even hear it, as an early symphony. I think its on par with what is generally considered his best.

Cato

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 31, 2014, 03:39:53 AM
Ray is correct. I've been listening to the 4th more than any of Dvorak's symphonies the past few months. I now don't categorize it, or even hear it, as an early symphony. I think its on par with what is generally considered his best.

Yes!!!  The dance-like melody in the first movement of the Fourth is ineffably beautiful: wistful, yearning, highly expressive of so many thoughts and memories, depending on the listener of course!   ;)

I heard it on an old Supraphon recording over 50 years ago, and thought it was just perfect, "early" symphony or not!
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

cilgwyn

I dig that mysterious opening! I bought the Kertesz recording recently. I had the Naxos recording before that. Okay,but this one did it for me. Anyone heard the Suitner recording?

Cato

Quote from: cilgwyn on October 31, 2014, 03:51:57 AM
I dig that mysterious opening! I bought the Kertesz recording recently. I had the Naxos recording before that. Okay,but this one did it for me. Anyone heard the Suitner recording?

I recall eagerly awaiting every Kertesz recording of the symphonies and anything else: despite their age, they remain some of the finest.  Sarge recommended the Witold Rowicki, and he is on target again!

Suitner I have not heard.

"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Madiel

I've got the American Suite in the Warner "Dvorak 100th Anniversary" box set. Zinman and the Rochester Philharmonic Orchestra. But I haven't actually listened to it yet, still working through the box.

But of course it isn't even originally an orchestral piece.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Karl Henning

Quote from: orfeo on October 31, 2014, 04:39:50 AM
But of course it isn't even originally an orchestral piece.

We can say that equally of the Slavonic Dances, whose greatness as an orchestral transcription suffers no doubt  ;)
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Jo498

I am thinking about getting the Kondrashin recording of the 9th (not that I really needed another one, but this is highly regarded). Apparently there are two reissues, once coupled with the "Czech Suite", once with the "American Suite" (I think Dorati is conducting the suites). I do not have either suite in my collection, which one should I get? Or is there an obvious recommendation for another recording of one of the suites or both?

Aside: I think the Slavonic dances are considerably better for orchestra. I feel almost the opposite way with Brahms' hungarian dances...
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Madiel

Quote from: karlhenning on October 31, 2014, 04:42:49 AM
We can say that equally of the Slavonic Dances, whose greatness as an orchestral transcription suffers no doubt  ;)

Yes, I'm well aware.

In fact, I would say Dvorak is one of the relatively few composers where I don't have my usual severe hang-up about later orchestrations, because most of them are hardly "later" at all. They are very much part of his standard compositional practice.

I would still like, though, for the original versions to get as much airtime as the orchestrations (especially for Ravel, but let's not get into that here).
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Karl Henning

Quote from: orfeo on October 31, 2014, 05:35:33 AM
I would still like, though, for the original versions to get as much airtime as the orchestrations (especially for Ravel, but let's not get into that here).

Fair enow, friend.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Chris L.

#355
Does anyone know why Dvorak's earliest String Quartet in D major is without an opus number? Is it that he never gave it one or that it was somehow lost to history? This is unlike Dvorak who tended to follow traditional classical themes in the naming of his works and their movements.

On another strange note, this quartet is clocking in at 72'21 in length on my Brilliant set as performed by Stamitz Quartet, an unusually long quartet for any composer or period especially considering it was his 1st. Perhaps he never intended it to be published, or he just never got around to editing and revising it?

Madiel

#356
Quote from: Christopher on March 12, 2015, 12:01:57 AM
Does anyone know why Dvorak's earliest String Quartet in D major is without an opus number? Is it that he never gave it one or that it was somehow lost to history? This is highly unlike Dvorak who tended to follow traditional classical themes in the naming of his works and their movements.

On another strange note, this quartet is clocking in at 72'21 in length on my Brilliant set as performed by Stamitz Quartet, an unusually long quartet for any composer or period especially considering it was his 1st. Perhaps he never intended it to be published, or he just never got around to editing and revising it?

I get curious about these sorts of things myself, and I find this site, which has several different works lists arranged in different ways and with a fair bit of information, often quite helpful on these questions.

It doesn't give any indication that the three early quartets without opus numbers ever actually had opus numbers, and Dvorak destroyed the scores so they've only survived because someone still had the parts. It's vaguely possible that the scores had opus numbers, but the parts didn't. It's also possible that he just never saw them as pieces for publication. There's no gap in the opus numbers that these quartets would slot into.

As to why it's so long, the main reason in my opinion is just that Dvorak was very long-winded at that point of his career and hadn't yet learned out how to edit and structure his tunes. Also, he was in love with Wagner and this encouraged him to try to make things of Wagnerian proportions.

But it's not Dvorak's first quartet. It's his third. That Stamitz set does some odd things with claimed opus numbers that no other source I've seen agrees with. They claim that two other quartets are "opus 4" and "opus 10" and I've got no idea where they get that from.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Chris L.

#357
Quote from: orfeo on March 12, 2015, 12:44:37 AM


But it's not Dvorak's first quartet. It's his third.
Thanks for the info, and I'll check that site out. I was assuming the quartet in D Major was his first since it was the first disc in the box set and because the notes had mentioned it being an early work, thought to have been composed around 1870. All the the other quartets in this complete set do have opus numbers, so I'm not sure what you mean when you said three of his quartets didn't have them.

Madiel

Quote from: Christopher on March 12, 2015, 12:54:30 AM
All the the other quartets in this complete set do have opus numbers, so I'm not sure what you mean when you said three of his quartets didn't have them.

I've edited my post above to explain this. The box you have has gone off on its own flight of fancy. Certainly it's non-standard.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Chris L.

Quote from: orfeo on March 12, 2015, 12:58:10 AM
I've edited my post above to explain this. The box you have has gone off on its own flight of fancy. Certainly it's non-standard.
Hmm... I guess that's what I get for buying the bargain Brilliant box.  ???