Dvorak's Den

[Madiel]

One problem I do have with the Kertesz set is Decca split-up many of the symphonies. Like in order to finish a symphony, you have to go to the next disc. This is the only annoyance I have with the box though.

This is one reason I like the Symphonies 4-6 version I have. No splits.

[Madiel]

Re the Czech and American Suites: I have these in my Warner 5-disc set, but I don't know that they're available separately any more - especially as they're not the same conductor.

The American Suite is David Zinman and the Rochester Philharmonic Orchestra (they also contribute the Legends).

The Czech Suite is Armin Jordan and the Orchestre de chambre de Lausanne (their only contribution to the set).

[Madiel]

Thanks for the suggestion. My dad actually owns that later Neumann cycle. I should listen to it. Do you know how it compares with his earlier cycle?

I think I've seen positive reviews. Certainly I saw a good review somewhere of the Symphonies 1-3 set, as I've got my eye on that one should I ever decide to get those works.

[PerfectWagnerite]

Thanks for the suggestion. My dad actually owns that later Neumann cycle. I should listen to it. Do you know how it compares with his earlier cycle?

Don't know, I don't have the earlier cycle.

[mc ukrneal]

I have that one. Centaur has always put out quality releases, IMO.

Yes, a bit of an unheralded label. They have some quite interesting releases.

[Mirror Image]

I think I've seen positive reviews. Certainly I saw a good review somewhere of the Symphonies 1-3 set, as I've got my eye on that one should I ever decide to get those works.

Yeah, I believe I remember reading the positive reviews as well. I suppose I'm just going to hold off buying anything else at the moment and hopefully will not buy anything else until January. I really do have a lot of exploring to do and all of these Supraphon sets have a lot to offer not to mention what my dad already owns.

[Madiel]

Just had another look around: I suspect that for Neumann's digital cycle, the early symphonies are more highly thought of than the later ones.

Anyway, I have two more things to say before I sign off for the evening. One is that I've loaded all of Symphonies 4-9 onto my iPhone for further listening over the next week and a bit, including some time away.

The second is that this thread has just had a monopoly on the "recent posts" on the forum home page. 

[Brian]

Yes, a bit of an unheralded label. They have some quite interesting releases.

Unrelated, but one of my favorite Centaur releases is the original (reconstructed) nonet version of Brahms' First Serenade, coupled with Louise Farrenc. Joyful music-making.

[Mirror Image]

RE: Missing pages from Supraphon's "Orchestral & Concertos" set -

I sent Supraphon a personal message via their website's link and hopefully they'll send me a booklet. I wonder if this particular batch all has missing pages in the liner notes?

[PerfectWagnerite]

Just had another look around: I suspect that for Neumann's digital cycle, the early symphonies are more highly thought of than the later ones.

Anyway, I have two more things to say before I sign off for the evening. One is that I've loaded all of Symphonies 4-9 onto my iPhone for further listening over the next week and a bit, including some time away.

The second is that this thread has just had a monopoly on the "recent posts" on the forum home page. 

Classicstoday.com gave this set raving reviews:

http://www.classicstoday.com/advanced-search/?searched_from=digest&pagination_currentpage=&pagination_totalresults=&search_composer_id=&search_soloist_id=&search_conductor_id=11286&search_ensemble_id=&search_tag=&search_composer=Enter+a+Composer&search_worktitle=Enter+a+Work%2FAlbum+Title&search_genre=-1&search_soloist=Enter+a+Soloist&search_conductor=Neumann%2C+Vaclav&search_ensemble=Enter+an+Orchestra%2FEnsemble

[cilgwyn]

Interesting. I always like Neumann. Another unflasy,underrated conductor,like Bryden Thomson,who is actually very good and better than some of the ones they drone on about (who shall remain nameless,for now! ). I have his recordings of the Erben Symphonic Poems. They are full of character and atmosphere & I love those Czech orchestras from the old Soviet days. By the way,have you heard Ancerl's Ninth? That's a must have if you like those orchestras. One of the most individual I've heard. The timbre of the woodwinds make it a standout. Unfortunately,my copy made a loud ticking sound in the drive of my mini hi-fi,so I had to make a cd-r!! I also like Reiner and Ormandy. The Reiner has great couplings & the Ormandy glorious performance of the wonderful,underrated Serenade for Strings. Going back to the Erben works;I find the Jarvi set pretty good. I like his Chandos cycle,too. I also have the Chalabala recording of the Erben Poems.I downloaded it,because sellers are always asking ridiculous prices;as if Chalabala actually signed it! I think I'll run some side by side comparisons later.

[Jo498]

there is a live 9th with Ancerl on Orfeo (+ violin concerto with Suk) that is in decent 60s live mono sound and gives one both of these pieces in very good ans exciting interpretations.

[cilgwyn]

Thanks! I didn't know about the Orfeo release. Bad news for my wallet,though!   I tend to dislike live recordings;but there are exceptions! The Gramophone review I looked at just now,raves about this performance and describes the finale as "simply electrifying"! Also,this cd might not make a ticking noise in my mini hi-fi drive! My s/h copy from MusicMagpie was around £4. They also had...........wait for it;the Chalabala recording of the Erben Poems. The other copies are offered by sellers are the usual prices;£42 (I think) upwards!! Think how many meals I can buy with the money I've saved?! Cross fingers,as they say,my s/h copies won't have any scratches! What a haul!!

[Jo498]

I can't vouch for (the absence of) clicking noises... I do not know any studio Ancerl 9th. I have the Orfeo and another cheap live one on Aura/Ermitage but the sound on the Orfeo is much better, as far as I recall. Orfeo has the advantage of getting those Salzburg live tapes directly from the Austrian Radio and while they are mono until the mid/late 60s they are usually in pretty good sound.

[cilgwyn]

I  actually rather like mono sound,funnily enough,on old recordings! The Ancerl I was referring to is on Supraphon. The woodwind is so good on that recording you could almost eat it. Not literally,of course! It's glorious. The Supraphon cd is okay by the way. It's just my mini hi-fi. It only happens with the occasional cd. Which reminds me. I wanted to email Denon about this. Has anyone else here ever had this problem,by the way?

[Mirror Image]

Interesting. I always like Neumann. Another unflasy,underrated conductor,like Bryden Thomson,who is actually very good and better than some of the ones they drone on about (who shall remain nameless,for now! ). I have his recordings of the Erben Symphonic Poems. They are full of character and atmosphere & I love those Czech orchestras from the old Soviet days. By the way,have you heard Ancerl's Ninth? That's a must have if you like those orchestras. One of the most individual I've heard. The timbre of the woodwinds make it a standout. Unfortunately,my copy made a loud ticking sound in the drive of my mini hi-fi,so I had to make a cd-r!! I also like Reiner and Ormandy. The Reiner has great couplings & the Ormandy glorious performance of the wonderful,underrated Serenade for Strings. Going back to the Erben works;I find the Jarvi set pretty good. I like his Chandos cycle,too. I also have the Chalabala recording of the Erben Poems.I downloaded it,because sellers are always asking ridiculous prices;as if Chalabala actually signed it! I think I'll run some side by side comparisons later.

Those Erben-inspired symphonic poems are absolutely incredible and some of my favorites from Dvorak. Neumann is outstanding in these works. I haven't heard all of Mackerras' recording of those works (yet), but The Water Goblin was mightily impressive. I've always been a fan of Mackerras' conducting anyway, especially when it comes to Czech music. I haven't heard Jarvi or Chalabala, but have doubts they could shake off the impressions I've experienced from Neumann, Harnoncourt, and Mackerras. Plus, I have so much more Dvorak to hear that my head is spinning at the near thought of it.

[cilgwyn]

I agree that Jarvi can't do better;but I had the Jarvi set BEFORE I got the Neumann,and the Chandos set includes other Overtures and orchestral works,so if I'm on a Dvorak binge he gets played. I think he's quite good,though. That said,Neumann is brilliant!!! And there's the difference! He really gets under the skin of the music in a way that Jarvi doesn't,and dare I say,can't. Then there's that 'authentic' sound. As to Chalabala. Well,some people seem to rave about his performances (or someone did?) and he is the 'real deal',in the sense that he's one of those Czech conductors from the Soviet era,and his orchestra would have that authentic sound from that hallowed era (musically,I might add,NOT politically!) so his interpretations should have something going for them. He was also one of Supraphons 'house' conductors! That said,I haven't listened to his recordings of them much;mainly because they're on a cd-r & not having jewel case spines,it's a nuisance locating him;so I generally don't bother. This should change once I get the cd. It's usually £40 upwards s/h. I love Dvorak. I had the recordings on a cd-r....how could I resist?!! Also,annoyingly;while all four of the Symphonic Poems fit onto the Chalabala Supraphon cd,I could only get three on a cd-r!! Great name too. Chalabala! I like it!!
The Neumann IS the one I play the most,however! You're right to rave about it!

[Mirror Image]

I agree that Jarvi can't do better;but I had the Jarvi set BEFORE I got the Neumann,and the Chandos set includes other Overtures and orchestral works,so if I'm on a Dvorak binge he gets played. I think he's quite good,though. That said,Neumann is brilliant!!! And there's the difference! He really gets under the skin of the music in a way that Jarvi doesn't,and dare I say,can't. Then there's that 'authentic' sound. As to Chalabala. Well,some people seem to rave about his performances (or someone did?) and he is the 'real deal',in the sense that he's one of those Czech conductors from the Soviet era,and his orchestra would have that authentic sound from that hallowed era (musically,I might add,NOT politically!) so his interpretations should have something going for them. He was also one of Supraphons 'house' conductors! That said,I haven't listened to his recordings of them much;mainly because they're on a cd-r & not having jewel case spines,it's a nuisance locating him;so I generally don't bother. This should change once I get the cd. It's usually £40 upwards s/h. I love Dvorak. I had the recordings on a cd-r....how could I resist?!! Also,annoyingly;while all four of the Symphonic Poems fit onto the Chalabala Supraphon cd,I could only get three on a cd-r!! Great name too. Chalabala! I like it!!
The Neumann IS the one I play the most,however! You're right to rave about it!

Chalabala is ridiculously overpriced and don't really understand why it hasn't been reissued, but I'm not exactly hurting for more recordings of the symphonic poems at this juncture. Have you heard Harnoncourt or Mackerras in these works? They're magnificent!

[amw]

I do love the four symphonic poems based on Erben, and recommend them highly - they often feel like attempts to extract maximum color and late-romantic incident out of the minimum possible melodic resources. Dvořák is still Dvořák, of course, in almost every way, with an even bigger palette of orchestral sound and maybe a Mahlerian tendency to excess, but at the same time that you have that excess, you have strictness, too. The Wild Dove is the finest example - it's a theme and variations, more or less; the dance and love song episodes are just tweaks to the opening funeral march theme. Dvořák wanted to show, I suppose, that he didn't just have a gift for melody; he had a gift for taking one melody and spinning it in any direction. The Water Goblin is maybe a rondo, but the main theme is insisted upon in every episode, and nearly every minute, with monomaniacal determination, like a serial killer lurking in the background sizing up each victim. It creates quite an impression seen live in concert, too - the ending, with one final near-silent statement of that theme stretched out over a minute, keeps the whole crowd shut-up and trying their best not to cough.

Maybe the exception to the "economical structure but with bells and whistles" rule is Noon-Day Witch - but that's also the shortest and pithiest. In general, the assignment Dvořák gave himself seems to have been to go on "Survivor" and build a cruise ship.

There are many high-quality recordings; Mackerras' are my favorite, but between Neumann, Kuchar, Harnoncourt, Kertesz, and Wit (Goblin only), it's not like there are wrong answers. There seems to be some controversy regarding what cymbals are to be used in Water Goblin; I don't recall where everyone stands on that.

Apparently I have listened to all the symphonic poems once in the Kubelik double. So I tried Neumann's Vodník instead which was good and relatively straightforward to assimilate (both formally speaking and in its quasi-dramatic structure).

Also a while back I think you asked me something about why I like Scherzo capriccioso—I think I'd have to say because despite its "scherzo" moments it is emotionally and harmonically one of Dvořák's more complex works. For instance the piece is in D-flat but begins in B-flat major, and B-flat continues to act as a disruptive presence (e.g. the persistent A-sharps in the second theme, which is in G major, the most distant possible key from D-flat; or how they lead to ending the first half in F-sharp major instead of the home key, etc) until being "exorcised" by B-double-flat. B-flat is, however, realistically a less dissonant note within D-flat major context than B-double-flat, which contributes to a sense of increasing strain throughout the second half as B-double-flat becomes completely overwhelming (taking over the main theme, then turning into A major to alternate with the tonic, throwing itself into the final chords, etc) which leads to the first half being this very emotionally ambiguous waltz-scherzo-thing and then the second half (after the trio) being this more traditional move to triumph but overlaid with this veneer of frenetic anxiety. That's just one example; there are many similar things. Hard for me to explain why, though; it's one of those pieces that clicked for me and became a favourite immediately on first hearing and I'm just trying to analyse in retrospect now.

[Brian]

Apparently I have listened to all the symphonic poems once in the Kubelik double. So I tried Neumann's Vodník instead which was good and relatively straightforward to assimilate (both formally speaking and in its quasi-dramatic structure).

Also a while back I think you asked me something about why I like Scherzo capriccioso—I think I'd have to say because despite its "scherzo" moments it is emotionally and harmonically one of Dvořák's more complex works. For instance the piece is in D-flat but begins in B-flat major, and B-flat continues to act as a disruptive presence (e.g. the persistent A-sharps in the second theme, which is in G major, the most distant possible key from D-flat; or how they lead to ending the first half in F-sharp major instead of the home key, etc) until being "exorcised" by B-double-flat. B-flat is, however, realistically a less dissonant note within D-flat major context than B-double-flat, which contributes to a sense of increasing strain throughout the second half as B-double-flat becomes completely overwhelming (taking over the main theme, then turning into A major to alternate with the tonic, throwing itself into the final chords, etc) which leads to the first half being this very emotionally ambiguous waltz-scherzo-thing and then the second half (after the trio) being this more traditional move to triumph but overlaid with this veneer of frenetic anxiety. That's just one example; there are many similar things. Hard for me to explain why, though; it's one of those pieces that clicked for me and became a favourite immediately on first hearing and I'm just trying to analyse in retrospect now.

Thanks so much for this. I remember listening to the Scherzo capriccioso for the first few times as a teenager and being caught off-guard: I thought it was just going to be a happy Czech dance thing. But even as you hear it the work defies expectations - the twists and turns he takes, which you describe in far better language. (Shout-out to the moment when the seemingly happy transition to the ending gets upturned entirely by that long, strange French horn solo.)

I listened to the piece a couple times this week after reading your post, in Dohnányi's recording, which has an immediacy and grab-your-collar insistence that my old Tilson Thomas recording lacked. While writing this, I'm writing Josef Suk's tribute to his father-in-law's work, the Fantastické scherzo, which has different mechanics and different language but to me is a similarly hectic kaleidoscope of moods, leading to a deeply weird conclusion that really freaked out my teenage self.