Brahms' challenge

[Chaszz]

Brahms co-signed a famous public letter where he and others criticized Liszt and Wagner for the direction they were trying to take music in. I believe this included what he saw as overly romantic and anti-formal elements such as loosened structures and literary programs in purely instrumental works. In view of the split which developed between musical conservatives and radicals, with its many bitter partisans on both sides, I believe Brahms may have later regretted this letter. For example, he would have liked to attend the premiere of The Ring at Bayreuth but was wary of the anger against him that might have been demonstrated, so stayed home.

Does anyone have some detail on this situation? What is some of the background information on this famous letter? What had Liszt, Wagner, or anyone else already written - either music or polemic - by that time? Was Hanslick involved at this early date? What was Schumann's reaction, if he was still alive and sane? And etc., etc....?

[Sergeant Rock]

Does anyone have some detail on this situation? What is some of the background information on this famous letter? What had Liszt, Wagner, or anyone else already written - either music or polemic - by that time? Was Hanslick involved at this early date? What was Schumann's reaction, if he was still alive and sane? And etc., etc....?

I assume you are talking about the 1860 Manifesto. It was Brahms' idea and he convinced Joachim to co-write it. The catalyst was an article in the Neue Zeitschrift that claimed the most prominent German composers, including finally the North Germans (Brahms, Joachim), supported the New Germans (Liszt, Wagner, Raff, Bülow) and their Music of the Future. Although Brahms admired Wagner he didn't like what he perceived as the demotion of "music to the position of handmaid of the other arts, allowing literature and paintings to dictate essential form."  Both Joachim and Brahms were especially sensitive at this point because they'd been subjected to very brutal reviews of their music. Although I believe Brahms already knew Hanslick, he wasn't directly involved (Brahms hadn't yet made the decision to settle permanently in Vienna). The manifesto was leaked early with only four signatures: Brahms, Joachim, Grimm, and Scholz, a conductor from Hannover. It wasn't taken seriously. Brahms was laughed at and publically humiliated.

Wagner had completed Rienzi, Holländer, Tannhäuser and Lohengrin at this point. Liszt had composed the two symphonies plus all but one of the tone poems (which Brahms really disliked). Schumann was already in the grave (having died in 1856) so his reaction was muted.

Brahms met Wagner a few years later and spent a pleasant evening with him. Wagner praised the Handel Variations which Brahms had played for hiim.

Sarge

[BachQ]

I believe Brahms may have later regretted this letter.

Ultimately, I suspect Brahms realized that it was one of the stupidest things he had ever done.  IOW, he probably DEEPLY regretted it.

[val]

Brahms could never stand Liszt music. But he admired Wagner's operas, in special Meistersinger, and let's not forget that he choose Berlioz to his programs in Wien, conducting Harold in Italy.
I think that the main reason of his opposition was what he perceived as a lack of structure (classic structure). In other aspects, harmony for example, Brahms was as "modern" as Wagner or Liszt.

[marvinbrown]

Brahms met Wagner a few years later and spent a pleasant evening with him. Wagner praised the Handel Variations which Brahms had played for hiim.

Sarge

  All's well that ends well  and we should all be grateful that we have the compositions of these two very fine composers.  Different styles and approaches to music of the highest caliber. 

  marvin

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Wagner had completed Rienzi, Holländer, Tannhäuser and Lohengrin at this point.

To be more exact: he had also written by that time Das Rheingold, Die Walküre, two acts of Siegfried and Tristan und Isolde - but none of that world-changing music was yet known...