Most Intelligent Composers

[marvinbrown]

So defensive, I never mentioned that he was a racist, antisemitic adulterer.

I don't think you have to be a micro-analyzer to be bothered by Wagner's texts.   The logical inconsistencies wouldn't be noticeable if it weren't for the 45 minute stretches where nothing happens (except Wotan is whining about his magic spear) and you have nothing else to think about.  For that reason I like Rheingold a lot.  Something is always happening, at least, and Loge is lots of fun.

  Sorry head-case but I never meant to imply that you mentioned that Wagner was a racist etc.  I wrote that as an after thought when I mentioned that Wagner was an intellectual and read philosophy, therefore he was very intelligent.  Also, as a preemptive strike I feared someone might write back claiming inconsistencies between Wagner's intellectual side and his racist rants (ie Judaism in Music).

  PS:  With regards to illogical text vis-a-vis intelligence I think you'll have a hard time finding any opera with a logical text- most opera plots don't make much sense anyway. 
  marvin

[head-case]

   PS:  With regards to illogical text vis-a-vis intelligence I think you'll have a hard time finding any opera with a logical text- most opera plots don't make much sense anyway. 
  marvin

The great operas do have plots that make sense, even if they take things to unrealistic extremes.  Otello (altough it's a blunt instrument compared with Shakespeare's origional), Tosca, Paigliacci, Boheme, Butterfly, Triaviata, Elektra, Salome make sense to me, although there is considerable melodramatic excess.  Figaro, Don Giovanni make sense, in their farsical way.  Zauberflote we won't talk about.

Wagner could have written some great stuff, if he hadn't been under the misapprehension that every drop of ink that dripped from his pen was destined to change the world.   In my book, that makes him talented but dumb in the extreme.

[karlhenning]

The great operas do have plots that make sense, even if they take things to unrealistic extremes.  Otello (altough it's a blunt instrument compared with Shakespeare's origional), Tosca, Paigliacci, Boheme, Butterfly, Triaviata, Elektra, Salome make sense to me, although there is considerable melodramatic excess.  Figaro, Don Giovanni make sense, in their farsical way.  Zauberflote we won't talk about.

I don't see why not;  it's a fable, which is one dramatic genre, and just as suited to the stage as other genres.

Wagner could have written some great stuff, if he hadn't been under the misapprehension that every drop of ink that dripped from his pen was destined to change the world.

There might even be something a little charming about someone thinking that his own work can be "THE force for good in the world."  Only in Wagner's case, the potential charm is immediately drowned out by his childish egoism.

[karlhenning]

  Correction mon ami  , you can always measure a wagnerite's enjoyment and delight, no discomfort here I assure you!

You are far too good-natured to be a true wagnerite, mon ami!    And I wish you all joy of your listening to Wagner.

[Rod Corkin]

Which composer do you think shows the greatest amount of intellect in his music?
I don't mean music which is just composed as complex as possible. The ideal conditions of a score which shows the highest level of sophistication would mean for me (also a point to discuss!): each note stands in relation to all the other notes, not a single note can be dropped without lowering the impression on the listener, there's nothing more to be said, the thematic material and its instrumentation is full of wit, etc.

I just listened to the Brahms 2nd PC and followed the score. I think I have never seen such a conclusive, awe-inspiring score. He definitely gets my vote.
Other candidates could be Bach and Mahler. Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven in most of their later works.

Now it's your turn.

This is why I keep coming back here, only at GMG do you get gems like this! 

[Ten thumbs]

Hmm. That hypothetical illustration appears to favor natural-science intelligence over artistic intelligence, doesn't it?

I think the distinction is between creative intelligence and practical intelligence. Creative intelligence may be attracted towards the unknown but anyone who abandons composition for physics is probably no great loss to music. I'm sticking with Mozart for my first choice.

[Mark G. Simon]

So who then was the dumbest major composer?

And Webern can't be that smart otherwise he would have paid attention to the curfew in effect

lol.

yeah, and he would have realized that smoking is bad for your health.

[(poco) Sforzando]

This is why I keep coming back here.

Lucky us.

[DavidRoss]

  Be that as it may, the music of the Ring Cycle is flawless  0:)!

  PS: if not flawless then remarkably enjoyable  .

I find it as flawed as the text--overlong, indulgent, and monotonous--which is too bad, as there's some pretty good stuff in there.

...Wagner was an intellectual and read philosophy, therefore he was very intelligent. 

No, no, no!  The world is full of morons who are intellectuals and read philosophy.  (Kevin Kline's character in A Fish Called Wanda is a memorable sendup of such fools.)  In fact, intellectualism virtually condemns its victims to idiocy, although the poor dullards are usually so feeble-minded that they mistake their handicap for a virtue! 

[Rod Corkin]

Lucky us.

There have been some silly topics at this forum, but this one truly takes the biscuit. 

[BachQ]

This is why I keep coming back .......

Like a chronic case of herpes ..........

[Rod Corkin]

Like a chronic case of herpes ..........

Don't be mean Dm. 

Someone has to put things right there, however unpopular that may be!

[Wanderer]

Like a chronic case of herpes ..........

Herpes. Still with us I see...

[Bonehelm]

I choose Beethoven and Mahler.

[The Emperor]

I choose the ones i like, cuz they were inteligent enough to make music i like

[marvinbrown]

I find it as flawed as the text--overlong, indulgent, and monotonous--which is too bad, as there's some pretty good stuff in there.

  Well the countless number of opera fans who flock to Bayreuth every year seem to disagree with you. Sorry but I am just not buying your argument about Wagner's music. 

   
 
  marvin



 

[head-case]

  Well the countless number of opera fans who flock to Bayreuth every year seem to disagree with you. Sorry but I am just not buying your argument about Wagner's music. 

   
 
  marvin

Countless?  It is a tiny theater and they have a limited number of performances every year, it is will within our ability to count.

Clearly the music is very fine, or it wouldn't have been so influential and it wouldn't still be played as frequently as it is.  However, I can't put it in the same league as the finest works of Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms, etc, where I can say that in a major work I couldn't want to change a note.   The libretto has enormous stretches which are pointless, and the lack of dramatic tension shows in the music.   I just listened to Walkure and if I were Wagner's editor I'd cut more than half of it and send half of what I keep back for a rewrite.

I think Rossini summed it up when he said "Wagner has beautiful moments and bad quarters of an hour."  Reportedly Rossini was also quoted to have said "One can't judge Wagner's opera Lohengrin after a first hearing, and I certainly don't intend to hear it a second time. "

[Haffner]

Countless?  It is a tiny theater and they have a limited number of performances every year, it is will within our ability to count.

Clearly the music is very fine, or it wouldn't have been so influential and it wouldn't still be played as frequently as it is.  However, I can't put it in the same league as the finest works of Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms, etc, where I can say that in a major work I couldn't want to change a note.   The libretto has enormous stretches which are pointless, and the lack of dramatic tension shows in the music.   I just listened to Walkure and if I were Wagner's editor I'd cut more than half of it and send half of what I keep back for a rewrite.

I think Rossini summed it up when he said "Wagner has beautiful moments and bad quarters of an hour."  Reportedly Rossini was also quoted to have said "One can't judge Wagner's opera Lohengrin after a first hearing, and I certainly don't intend to hear it a second time. "

To each his own! I very much agree with many of your points. But, for me at least, the Ring and (perhaps even moreso) Parsifal are the pinnacles of post-Beethoven Western Musical Art. They haven't been surpassed since. But that is entirely my opinion.

Of course you mentioned some other, tremendous composers (great choices by the way).

It sounds to me that the likes of Bruckner and Mahler were influenced (in the resoundingly POSITIVE way) by Wagner more than anyone else. And that, in itself, is quite the coup for the world.

Again, this is just me.

[Mark G. Simon]

To each his own! I very much agree with many of your points. But, for me at least, the Ring and (perhaps even moreso) Parsifal are the pinnacles of post-Beethoven Western Musical Art. They haven't been surpassed since. But that is entirely my opinion.

It is also the opinion of a lot of people, despite the few on this forum who like to make a lot of noise against Wagner.

[Haffner]

It is also the opinion of a lot of people, despite the few on this forum who like to make a lot of noise against Wagner.

I sympathize with the "noise-makers" in regard to the "too long" or "too recititave-y" complaint.

I can also see eye-to-eye with a person whom finds Wagner in general to be an "acquired taste".