Most Intelligent Composers

[BachQ]

I suspect that Ludwig van Beethoven's overall intelligence was not particularly acute despite his being a musical genius. 

Could you provide examples of Beethoven's non-musical intellectual shortcomings?  I'd be interested in knowing.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Could you provide examples of Beethoven's non-musical intellectual shortcomings?  I'd be interested in knowing.

He could never multiply - he had to add columns of like numbers to get the total. His German prose, as revealed in his letters, was crude and unpolished. Those two come to mind.

[M forever]

Do you understand German well enough to judge that or did you read that somewhere?

And what say ye to Schoenberg's famous essay "Brahms, the Revolutionary"?  (Also translated as "Brahms the Progressive.")

Not also. "Brahms, der Fortschrittliche" can only be translated as "the Progressive". However thinks it can also be translated as "the Revolutionary" obvously doesn't know German and shouldn't translate anything.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Do you understand German well enough to judge that or did you read that somewhere?

I'll let you decide for yourself.

[M forever]

Decide what?

[Symphonien]

And I suppose Alexander Borodin, a research chemist and composer, would also be high on the list.

Did you realise that "Alexander Borodin" is an anagram of "Ex lab nerd on radio"? One of the best anagrams I know...

[DavidRoss]

Not also. "Brahms, der Fortschrittliche" can only be translated as "the Progressive". However thinks it can also be translated as "the Revolutionary" obvously doesn't know German and shouldn't translate anything.

Or perhaps the translator doesn't understand English as precisely as you do, or (as is the translator's lamentable prerogative) takes certain liberties in translation to shift interpretation in the direction of his choice.  Bear in mind that those slightly left of center politically often conflate terms like "progressive," "revolutionary," and "radical," even using them to describe policies that simply perpetuate the status quo.

[Josquin des Prez]

And what say ye to Schoenberg's famous essay "Brahms, the Revolutionary"?  (Also translated as "Brahms the Progressive.")

There's always the chance Schoenberg really didn't know what he was talking about.

[Josquin des Prez]

He could never multiply - he had to add columns of like numbers to get the total. His German prose, as revealed in his letters, was crude and unpolished. Those two come to mind.

I'm starting to suspect Beethoven suffered from a form of attention deficit disorder, probably of the "inattentive" type (i myself suffer from the same illness and can recognize the signs), which would go a long way in explaining those difficulties in light of the extreme intelligence of his music. Even his literary tastes were completely out of proportion to his seemingly inept prose. I think people put too much faith to the fact that, just because some individuals demonstrate incredible feats of mental prowess every part of their brain is as evolved in equal measure, or vice versa. It's not that simple.

[greg]

There's always the chance Schoenberg really didn't know what he was talking about.

not really 
have you studied any of Brahms' scores?

[jochanaan]

not really 
have you studied any of Brahms' scores?

Good point.  Not only have I studied the scores, I've played in the orchestra for his first two symphonies and Academic Festival Overture. However, I feel it's more precise to say that Brahms looked forward by looking back.  A lot of his contrapuntal and rhythmic devices, especially the endless syncopations, came directly from Renaissance music; and the Chaconne (the form of the Fourth Symphony's last movement) is a very old form.  In this way he was the forerunner of composers like Stravinsky (of the neoclassic period) and Hovhaness, who also looked forward by looking back at earlier music.

[ibanezmonster]

By intelligent, I mean in the scholarly sense.
Two of the smartest ones I can think of:


1. Xenakis- fluent in at least 4 languages, an expert on Greek mythology, an architect, a math expert, the guy who wrote "Formalized Music," a pioneer in electroacoustic music... if any composer can top him in book smarts, I'd be surprised.

2. Prokofiev-  a chess master, knew 3 languages (though I can't remember how well his English was), and according to what I've read, the guy once was listening to some other guy play his piano concerto at a recital (the guy's piano concerto, not Prokofiev's). The guy forgot how  a passage went and stopped playing. Then, Prokofiev came onstage and finished it off. Not sure how true it is, but if it is, then wow!

[Sid]

A few that come to mind (but most here will probably know these) -

Holst - knew Sanskrit, had an interest in astronomy (hence, The Planets).

Mendelssohn - grew up in a cultivated household with an interest in visual art (he was a pretty good painter & sketcher), languages (not sure which ones, except German & English), philosophy, etc.

Carter - watching interviews with him, he's very much an "intellectual" - reads widely and I remember him mentioning reading things in the original Greek & French...

[Scarpia]

We already have a thread called "Most Intelligent Composer?" and you've posted in it.

I'm not so impressed with either of your examples.

Prokofiev may have had a good musical memory, nothing compared to Mozart.  The Catholic church did not allow publication of Allegri's Miserere, until the 14 year old Mozart heard a performance in the Sistine chapel, and afterwards wrote the 9-part choral piece down from memory.   Mozart's transcription was the first publication of the work.

The story is also told that when Beethoven premiered his first piano concerto he came to the hall to find the piano tuned a semitone flat.  He performed the concerto by transposing to C# minor in his head so it would sound in C and be in tune with the orchestra. 

I don't find the fact that Xenakis dabbled in various fields (in which he didn't particularly excel) particularly impressive.

[Mirror Image]

Schoenberg was an intellectual. He had a wide variety of interests. He was also a very skilled painter.

Borodin could be considered an intellectual. Being a highly gifted composer, but also an acknowledged and well-respected chemist in his field of research.

[Sid]

I'm not so impressed with either of your examples.

I'm not sure if the aim of this (or any other) thread is to "impress" anyone here. I think if someone's aim is to "impress" other people online, then maybe they should consider getting a life.

Prokofiev may have had a good musical memory, nothing compared to Mozart.  The Catholic church did not allow publication of Allegri's Miserere, until the 14 year old Mozart heard a performance in the Sistine chapel, and afterwards wrote the 9-part choral piece down from memory.   Mozart's transcription was the first publication of the work.

The story is also told that when Beethoven premiered his first piano concerto he came to the hall to find the piano tuned a semitone flat.  He performed the concerto by transposing to C# minor in his head so it would sound in C and be in tune with the orchestra. 

Those are good examples, I knew about the Mozart story but didn't know about the Beethoven one.

I don't find the fact that Xenakis dabbled in various fields (in which he didn't particularly excel) particularly impressive.

Well, he was amongst the first composers to use computers to generate patterns as a basis for his music. Again, it's not an issue of being impressed, but more about the fact that not many others were doing these kinds of things at the time (the 1960's). I'm not an expert in his or any other composers' music, but I think you'd have to give him credit for being so innovative and actually producing something that has stood the test of time since...

[Scarpia]

I'm not sure if the aim of this (or any other) thread is to "impress" anyone here. I think if someone's aim is to "impress" other people online, then maybe they should consider getting a life.

Your aim seems to be to develop the act of taking umbrage to an art form.  Perhaps you should get a life?

Well, he was amongst the first composers to use computers to generate patterns as a basis for his music. Again, it's not an issue of being impressed, but more about the fact that not many others were doing these kinds of things at the time (the 1960's). I'm not an expert in his or any other composers' music, but I think you'd have to give him credit for being so innovative and actually producing something that has stood the test of time since...

Using a simplistic computer program to generate random music might be original, but it doesn't strike me as particularly requiring "intelligence."  From a technical point of view it is a lot harder to write a computer program for which there is a difficult to meet criteria for success, for instance, one that correctly integrates a partial differential equation.   My interpretation of the thread topic was to identify composers who demonstrated intelligence, in addition to being good composers.

The short answer is, I don't know of any.  The Mozart and Beethoven feats were musical, and related to their talent as composers.  Off hand, I don't know of any composers who actually accomplished anything significant outside the field of music.  The closest might be William Herschel, who was a significant astronomer and wrote a few symphonies good enough to make the "Contemporaries of Mozart" series on Chandos.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

I don't find the fact that Xenakis dabbled in various fields (in which he didn't particularly excel) particularly impressive.

I wouldn't call Xenakis a dabbler. In addition to the talents mentioned by Greg, he was a working architect, student of Le Corbusier, and designed some significant buildings. The fact that I consider Le Corbusier a cancerous influence on modern urban design doesn't detract from X's sheer intellectual power.

You're right about Prokofiev - excellent musical memory, but plenty of composers have that.

Boulez has to be another super-high-IQ composer; also Carter, as already mentioned (apparently he taught mathematics at college level, besides his other achievements).

Borodin, already mentioned, was a professor of chemistry. Personally I think he should have ditched it and composed full-time; maybe he wouldn't have left some significant works unfinished.

On the other hand, it's interesting how intellectually narrow some great composers were. Beethoven never even learned to do basic arithmetic, which got him into all kinds of trouble with his finances. Bruckner, Schubert, and Brahms also seemed to have no deep interests outside of music.

[Luke]

Off hand, I don't know of any composers who actually accomplished anything significant outside the field of music.  The closest might be William Herschel, who was a significant astronomer and wrote a few symphonies good enough to make the "Contemporaries of Mozart" series on Chandos.

...or you could look at it the other way round and identify people who excelled in other fields who also composed - Anthony Burgess, for instance, who really would have wanted to think of himself as a composer first and foremost. (I have some of his music on CD, and a score of an orchestral piece, and it's really not too bad....but I'll tak Earthly Powers over it any day!).

That Beethoven transposition feat, btw, is echoed in a story about Brahms on one of his youthful trips with Remenyi, in which, encountering an out-of-tune piano (and rather than having Remenyi simply retune the violin) he transposed the whole programme by a semitone. It's the sort of story which makes good jaw-dropping reading, but I'm not quite as amazed at it as I used to be, mainly because as I get older I'm sort-of able to do it myself - not as fluently, of course, nowhere near, but I know how the trick works, so to speak. At any rate, it's not really indicative of intelligence, just of very highly-trained musical skills.

An out-an-out egghead is Brian Ferneyhough. I'm not saying this because of the complexity of his music but because of the complexity of his thought, and the way that, even in conversation (let alone writing) his languague is so extraordinarily subtle, dense and...well, complex! Before anyone jumps in and replies that complexity of language is not necessarily A Good Thing, I agree, of course - but in Ferneyhough's case it's certainly indicative of a highly able and formidable brain.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

Here's one: though he's not widely known as a composer, Giuseppe Sinopoli was not just a prominent conductor, he was also a medical doctor by education (specializing in psychiatry), multi-lingual, did a course in Egyptology (!) later in life, and held an academic post in electronic music. (And he composed.)

Top that.