Fresh Outbreak of Religion-Bashing Threads

[Norbeone]

The acme of irrationality here is the atheist's implicit claim to omniscience--to know there is no God would require that he know EVERYTHING--whereas to know that God exists means only that you must know that God exists, a far more modest claim. 
is manifested in our behavior. 

The first part of this I agree with - to possess knowledge of God's non-existence is certainly beyond human possibility. However, why on earth do believers get a free pass in their claim of knowledge? You say that I am not part of those that KNOW, but how can anyone know? You may believe very very strongly, but you cannot know. Are you really missing this huge contradiction?


Btw, I apologize for misinterpreting your previous comment, which I thought was directed at me.

[Brian]

The acme of irrationality here is the atheist's implicit claim to omniscience--to know there is no God would require that he know EVERYTHING--whereas to know that God exists means only that you must know that God exists, a far more modest claim. 

Do you "know" that Zeus does not exist? Does that require you to know everything?

[Joe_Campbell]

I once thought I was going to visit him, but it ended up being a bunch of cages with animals in them.

[DavidRoss]

The first part of this I agree with - to possess knowledge of God's non-existence is certainly beyond human possibility. However, why on earth do believers get a free pass in their claim of knowledge? You say that I am not part of those that KNOW, but how can anyone know? You may believe very very strongly, but you cannot know. Are you really missing this huge contradiction?

There is no contradiction.  Knowledge and belief are not the same.  Millions of people believe but do not know.  This may be why faith is so often confused with belief.  But other millions of people do know that God not only exists, but is actively engaged in the world, their lives, and the lives of others.  This knowledge enables them to live happily in faith despite the misery and needless suffering that human madness inflicts on the world.

If you thirst for personal knowledge, it is available--but you must choose to make yourself available to it.  You cannot meet God on your terms, but only on his.  You must be willing to surrender the little self of the ego to meet your true Self.  At the core of most religions, once you dispense with all the party hats and colored umbrellas, there is a long-proven and well-traveled path to God.  Seek and ye shall find.  Don't seek and God won't force himself on you.  He's a suitor, not a stalker!

If you are honestly interested in trying to understand how this can be, and if you are not situated so as to recognize and learn from the God-centered souls whose paths cross yours every day, then you might try investigating the rich literature of faith, perhaps starting with a contemporary classic of spiritual autobiography, Thomas Merton's The Seven Storey Mountain.  Reading or hearing about someone else's journey often facilitates imagining your own and can open the doors to possibilities of which you feared to dare to hope.

Namaste.  May the peace of God be with you.

[DavidRoss]

Do you "know" that Zeus does not exist? Does that require you to know everything?

No, I don't know, but what I would suspect is that Zeus is a projection of certain human attributes to give a human face to the unfathomable divine, probably not too different from the Über-patriarch many naïve monotheistic believers picture as the embodiment of God himself.  God's existence is independent of our shallow characterizations of him.  Let us not mistake the reference for the referent, the finger for the moon, the messenger for the message.

[Norbeone]

  At the core of most religions, once you dispense with all the party hats and colored umbrellas, there is a long-proven and well-traveled path to God.  Seek and ye shall find.  Don't seek and God won't force himself on you.  He's a suitor, not a stalker!

So you can genuinely find God in any religion? Hmmmm.....more contradiction, IMO. I'm talking, of course, about finding an actual entity that people call God, not just a metaphorical idea.
Also, you say this path to God is a long-proven one? Sorry, but I must have missed a meeting.


Btw, you still don't seem to get what my problem is when you say, "But other millions of people do know that God not only exists, but is actively engaged in the world, their lives, and the lives of others". Here, I think YOU are mixing up the definitions of belief and knowledge. Noone can KNOW that God exists - why won't you concede this point?...especially when I, as an atheist concede that I can never know either.


You recommend a book for me to read, but before I consider giving it the benefit of the doubt, what God will this book convince me to believe in? Or will it help me find any God I like, consequently kicking out any notions of believing in any organised religions?


May the peace of the good people on earth be with you.

[DavidRoss]

So you can genuinely find God in any religion? Hmmmm.....more contradiction, IMO. I'm talking, of course, about finding an actual entity that people call God, not just a metaphorical idea.
Also, you say this path to God is a long-proven one? Sorry, but I must have missed a meeting.


Btw, you still don't seem to get what my problem is when you say, "But other millions of people do know that God not only exists, but is actively engaged in the world, their lives, and the lives of others". Here, I think YOU are mixing up the definitions of belief and knowledge. Noone can KNOW that God exists - why won't you concede this point?...especially when I, as an atheist concede that I can never know either.


You recommend a book for me to read, but before I consider giving it the benefit of the doubt, what God will this book convince me to believe in? Or will it help me find any God I like, consequently kicking out any notions of believing in any organised religions?


May the peace of the good people on earth be with you.

I understand your difficulty.  You don't want to believe that other people know.  God not only exists, but the evidence of his existence is everywhere within plain sight.  Knowledge is not based on reasoning from evidence, however.  Knowledge is found within.

You are having difficulty with some basic logic here.  Atheism is a claim that God does not exist.  This is an extraordinary claim of knowledge, quite distinct from the perfectly rational claim of ignorance made by agnostics.  To know God does not exist, you would have to know everything about the entire universe.  Whether you do, in fact, know everything about the entire universe should be easy to discover.  Falsifying such a claim requires only one instance of ignorance.  Quick!  Where is the entrance to the Lost Dutchman mine?

Knowledge that God exists, on the other hand, is a very limited claim rooted in experience--it is empirical, not theoretical.  External evidence of such an experience may be found in the recounting of similar experiences by credible witnesses and in the profound changes in personality, outlook on life, and effect on others that always follows such an experience.

You're not reading me very carefully when you say that I've said "you can genuinely find God in any religion."  What I actually said was, "At the core of most religions...is a long-proven and well-traveled path to God."  The suggested path is pretty consistent regardless of the variant institutions that have grown like barnacles around the core, obscuring it with smoke, incense, dogma, and colorful party hats.  You don't have to go anywhere, don't have to believe anything,  don't have to sign any pledges or turn your bank account over; all you have to do is to start clearing away all the crap that you've stored up inside that secret room in your psyche, get rid of all that clutter that chains you to ego, to pride, to fear, to desire, to prejudice, to false beliefs--get rid of everything that blocks you from reaching that little window hidden in the corner of the room behind all those boxes stuffed with garbage, all the rusty, discarded toys and tools, the outdated textbooks, the photo albums, the outgrown clothes, and so on--and then you clean that window and sit quietly long enough for your breathing to steady and your mind to calm, and when your eyes have adjusted to the light you look through that window to your soul and meet your true Self, and then you know.

Re. the book I suggested: I doubt it will convince you of anything.  I didn't recommend it to try compelling you to believe in any particular conception of God or religion or anything at all.  I recommended it because you questioned how anyone could come to know God, and I chose to take it at face value.  Thomas Merton's autobiography is a contemporary classic describing one remarkable man's journey from disbelief to faith.  Reading it should answer your question, at least about one very bright, thoughtful, and literate man's journey.  Whether you read it or not, and what you get out of it if you do, is entirely up to you.

[Don]

There is no contradiction.  Knowledge and belief are not the same.  Millions of people believe but do not know.  This may be why faith is so often confused with belief.  But other millions of people do know that God not only exists, but is actively engaged in the world, their lives, and the lives of others.  This knowledge enables them to live happily in faith despite the misery and needless suffering that human madness inflicts on the world.

Belief is not knowledge.  You're a little mixed up.

[Christo]

Knowledge and belief are not the same.

Belief is not knowledge. You're a little mixed up.

Hmmm.... well, well, dum, dum, na na. 

[Norbeone]

Hmmm.... well, well, dum, dum, na na. 

It's what he goes on to say that Don is referring to.

[M forever]

Knowledge that God exists, on the other hand, is a very limited claim rooted in experience--it is empirical, not theoretical.  External evidence of such an experience may be found in the recounting of similar experiences by credible witnesses and in the profound changes in personality, outlook on life, and effect on others that always follows such an experience.

That may tell us a lot about the human psyche, but it does not tell us anything about "God".

I recommended it because you questioned how anyone could come to know God

We don't even know ourselves. To know God is a completely ridiculous claim.

[M forever]

Thomas Merton's autobiography is a contemporary classic describing one remarkable man's journey from disbelief to faith.  Reading it should answer your question, at least about one very bright, thoughtful, and literate man's journey.

I don't think God wanted Merton to go on pretending to know and preaching what he was up to, so he zapped him:

He died in Bangkok on 10 December 1968, having touched a poorly grounded electric fan while stepping out of his bath.

At least that's what it says in wikipedia. Nothing could illustrate better how ridiculous the claims of such people to know more about God and the universe are, and how very much they are subject to the same natural laws and causes and effects, like all we other animals on this rock racing through space.

[DavidRoss]

Belief is not knowledge.  You're a little mixed up.

Not at all.  Reread the statements you quote.  You simply get irritated at the thought that millions of people actually know something that you don't want to be true.  But millions of people do know, whether you like it or not.

[DavidRoss]

Nothing could illustrate better how ridiculous the claims of such people to know more about God and the universe are, and how very much they are subject to the same natural laws and causes and effects, like all we other animals on this rock racing through space.

Wherever did someone as intelligent as you get the absurd idea that Merton or anyone else should not be subject to natural law?

To know God is a completely ridiculous claim.

You've stated this belief many times before.  Thanks for sharing.

[M forever]

Not at all.  Reread the statements you quote.  You simply get irritated at the thought that millions of people actually know something that you don't want to be true.  But millions of people do know, whether you like it or not.

In German, there is a saying which fits extremely well here: "Eat shit! Millions of flies can't be wrong."

This is by far the silliest and most childish argument I can recall having read in any of those religion threads. Millions of people also once knew that the world was a flat disc, that diseases are caused by evil spirits, that you can bring your enemies down with black magic (if your wizard is powerful enough, at least) and many other things.

Millions of people also once followed Hitler - so you are saying he must have been right then?

[M forever]

You've stated this belief many times before.  Thanks for sharing.

That's not a "belief". It's merely stating the obvious. We don't know these things. We don't understand them. They are far beyond our grasp. If some people claim they do, they are just pretenders. Especially when it is obvious that they haven't really "found God" but that they are just following a ritualized cult.

I could easily say "I know God doesn't exist because I have come to understand the universe and he has no part in it." That would be just as ridiculous a statement. Because nobody understands the universe.

I am astonished by how confused you are about "belief" and "knowledge". You are seriously confused. I have seen that many times, how religions totally screw with the heads of their follower, turning sane and highly intelligent people into confused beings who see themselves as some higher form of life which has insights other, lower people don't have. That is a form of delusion similar to racism. One can see very clearly here once again what a debilitating, vicious mental disease religion is.

[M forever]

Wherever did someone as intelligent as you get the absurd idea that Merton or anyone else should not be subject to natural law?

From himself. He apparently thought he was able to understand things beyond our understanding, by reading a lot of nice mystical literature and blablaing it on and then - zap!!! - he takes such an unspiritual end. I find that highly amusing. Maybe there is a God after all, and he has an evil sense of humor?

[Norbeone]

Not at all.  Reread the statements you quote.  You simply get irritated at the thought that millions of people actually know something that you don't want to be true.  But millions of people do know, whether you like it or not.

They do not know. They don't. They DO NOT know. I don't know either, but I know that they don't know, and that you don't know.

[DavidRoss]

This is by far the silliest and most childish argument I can recall having read in any of those religion threads.

What you are referring to is not an argument, but a simple statement that millions of people know God exists.  Some of you clearly are disturbed by that and don't want to believe it.  Great.  Believe whatever you find comforting.

Your subsequent posts confuse knowing that God exists with (a) understanding God and (b) religious belief.  No one I've ever known has claimed to understand God, and religious belief is neither a necessary nor sufficient condition for knowing God.  You go on to paint religious belief with a horrifyingly bigoted brush that betrays the extreme irrationality of your vehement anti-religious prejudices.  Furthermore, your statement about Merton judges him cruelly while demonstrating that you know almost nothing about the man and his writings.  All these tirades have done is to demonstrate that--at least where topics concerning God and faith are concerned--your prejudices override your intellectual integrity.

[M forever]

What you are referring to is not an argument, but a simple statement that millions of people know God exists.  Some of you clearly are disturbed by that and don't want to believe it.  Great.  Believe whatever you find comforting.

Your subsequent posts confuse knowing that God exists with (a) understanding God and (b) religious belief.

That's not what you said earlier. You said clearly that "millions of people actually know something that you don't want to be true". You still oscillate between "knowing" and "believing".

Not at all.  Reread the statements you quote.  You simply get irritated at the thought that millions of people actually know something that you don't want to be true.  But millions of people do know, whether you like it or not.

You are not clear about that yourself. It is however clear that it is emotionally extremely important for you that it must somehow be true, even though you really have no clue, not anymore than I do or anyone else on the planet.

You saying "believe whatever you find comforting" is very telling. It is not about whatever "greater truth" there may be for you, it is simply for your own soul's comfort that you cling to those beliefs. Which is OK if it works for you. The only problem with "religious" people like you is that their comfort construct depends on it somehow being absolutely "true" and there it clashes with people who are actually much more open-minded and who do not want their minds screwed with by primitive idol worshipping cults and their close-minded followers.

You go on to paint religious belief with a horrifyingly bigoted brush that betrays the extreme irrationality of your vehement anti-religious prejudices.

I have absolutely nothing against religious or mystical feelings and experiences. What gives you that idea? Because I don't think your little primitive cult has all the answers? Only because you and your fellow cult members declare themselves possessors of the ultimate truth? How dare you? Therein lies the greatest bigotry and arrogance one can display. There is nothing more arrogant, aggressive, and ultimately inhuman than that. See how it screws with your brain and sows hatred for other people in you?

Furthermore, your statement about Merton judges him cruelly while demonstrating that you know almost nothing about the man and his writings.

Merton may be a hero of the faith for you. For me, he is just another guy, an irrelevant writer of religious blabla who just got zapped off the planet like a rat while he probably thought he was some very special and saintly person, better than other people, that he was somehow in the position to lecture other people about "God". I find that brutally funny and ironic. Like I said, maybe that tells us that there is some kind of "God" after all and he punished that guy for his arrogance.

All these tirades have done is to demonstrate that--at least where topics concerning God and faith are concerned--your prejudices override your intellectual integrity.

Since nothing of that subject has anything to do with "intellectual integrity" - from an intellectual point of view, the whole subject is completely ridiculous and very obviously just a phenomenon of cultural history - but it all comes down to a matter of "faith", and the fact that you claim you have that and that makes you better than other people - that weak attempt at an only slightly veiled personal attack of yours is pretty pitiful and makes you the complete loser of the argument here. If you have to sink as low as attacking people for lacking "intellectual integrity" about a subject which you yourself said time and time again is not a matter of intellectual analysis, but of "faith" - that means you are totally out of arguments.