Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier

Started by Bogey, May 06, 2007, 01:26:30 PM

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Que

Quote from: Mandryka on December 19, 2017, 12:35:41 PM


I think this is one of the great baroque keyboard  recordings of all time. . Rubsam knows how to apply all the keyboard players' tricks to make the music expressive in a way which functions. I mean the rubato, the almost style brisé effect of the voicing, the arpeggios etc sound a natural part of the music rather than something just plonked into the music. And they make the music very moving.

But where I think he's developed since his piano recordings for Naxos is that he's found a space where he can abandon his feelings, his emotions. There's no sense at all that Rübsam is sounding off  or that he's expressing himself. The performances are both abstract and moving. This is a major, and rare, achievement!

Quote from: milk on December 19, 2017, 11:50:11 PM
How did I miss this? This is a unique recording to be sure. I wonder why this didn't make any year's-best-list. Rubsam comes up with one of the most unique recordings of WTC, both in the chosen instrument and in his style. Counterpunctual clarity may be one aspect of this but there's also this wonderful staggering of the lines, rhythmic variation, and demonstrative use of agogics. It's a wild ride even while employing pretty slow tempos - even slower than Watchorn. Have people not heard this? This should make some noise. I'm just on Book one though.   

Listened to the samples.
Sure, anyone who likes a slow, staggering and disjointed approach in which musical lines are deconstructed, will have a field day.  :)

Q

Mandryka

#1341
That may explain why, when listening to Rubsam's WTC last night, I couldn't stop myself thinking of Vartolo's Frescobaldi capriccios and Bk 2 toccatas, which is also played at a tempo you could sing, and with the sort of attention to expressive detail that's so characteristic of seconda pratica.

But really I'm not so sure that madrigalesque or cantabile is right to describe Rubsam's achievement here, because of the arpeggiation, I don't mean that where a chord is written into the music he rolls it, I mean that where the notes in the different voices collide to make a harmony, they're staggered by a millisecond to make an arpeggio of sorts. This is why I likened it to style brisé. But I've been thinking a lot about style brisé these past few days and I could be exaggerating, seeing it in places where it isn't. The fact that it's on a Lautenwerk makes you think straight away of Gaultier, Dufaut etc!

Anyway one thing for sure, this is a major landmark which I'd say is the biggest fresh idea in Bach harpsichord performance since Leonhardt's DHM Art of Fugue,
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Mandryka

Quote from: Que on December 20, 2017, 01:20:32 AM
disjointed approach
Q

I wonder if other people agree with que that the approach is disjointed (overarticulated?)

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

milk

Quote from: Mandryka on December 20, 2017, 01:51:04 AM
Anyway one thing for sure, this is a major landmark which I'd say is the biggest fresh idea in Bach harpsichord performance since Leonhardt's DHM Art of Fugue,
Quote from: Mandryka on December 20, 2017, 02:59:05 AM
I wonder if other people agree with que that the approach is disjointed (overarticulated?)
I can see why people might feel this way. I want to listen to Watchorn again just to see what he does with a similarly slow pace. But anyway, I think this is the most radical Bach I've heard in a while. Unlike Batagov though, it's well thought out and, I'm guessing, defensible in terms of historical practice. I'm always up for a new side of Bach. There's no other music that is so rich and flexible and I think what Rubsam does mostly works. What I hear in this music is an lively interplay between musical lines but not disjointed (for most of it). Once upon a time I had some lute harpsichord recordings by John Paul but they never touched me the way Rubsam does. 
Even if one hates this though, I think it still deserves a review. I don't see even one review of this anywhere.

Mandryka

#1344
I think reviewers tend to review recordings they get for free from PR agencies, maybe Rübsam doesn't have a PR agent, he's distributing the recordings himself.

It was the idea that it's disjointed which I didn't quite follow - the tempos are slower than, I dunno, Dantone, but there is as far as I can see no reason not to take it at Rubsam's speed, there are no tempos directly in the score as far as I recall. The idea that it's deconstructed is interested and I need to think - it suggests that there's a preexisting construction which has been exposed, maybe the other performances hide the construction like a cabinetmaker might hide his dowels. 
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

milk

Quote from: Mandryka on December 20, 2017, 04:24:19 AM
I think reviewers tend to review recordings they get for free from PR agencies, maybe Rübsam doesn't have a PR agent, he's distributing the recordings himself.

It was the idea that it's disjointed which I didn't quite follow - the tempos are slower than, I dunno, Dantone, but there is as far as I can see no reason not to take it at Rubsam's speed, there are no tempos directly in the score as far as I recall. The idea that it's deconstructed is interested and I need to think - it suggests that there's a preexisting construction which has been exposed, maybe the other performances hide the construction like a cabinetmaker might hide his dowels.
One does get the sense that something is uncovered. I like to consider all views with Bach. Maybe it's good. I like a lot of opposite recordings where it's more of an overall effect to the music. Here, I think you've put it well about construction. That in itself is something really weird and interesting. But I also don't know if there's a better way to go with the Lautenwerk as the other recordings I have with this instrument are very same-y and a bit tiresome. Could he have done this same thing with the piano? We get extra clarity with the sound quality of the instrument. 

San Antone

Quote from: Mandryka on December 20, 2017, 02:59:05 AM
I wonder if other people agree with que that the approach is disjointed (overarticulated?)

My initial impression is positive.  But I want to live with the performances for a while before making a statement like yours here:

Quoteone thing for sure, this is a major landmark which I'd say is the biggest fresh idea in Bach harpsichord performance since Leonhardt's DHM Art of Fugue,

Btw, he has also recorded the AoF (at least one volume) on a lute harpsichord.

premont

Quote from: JCBuckley on December 20, 2017, 01:09:03 AM
From the website of Keith Hill, who made the instrument that Rübsam plays:

He was convinced when it was pointed out  how Bach, in his autograph manuscripts as verifiable from facsimilis , actually writes his idea of  "vacillare" directly into the score by writing the notes played by the right hand fractionally ahead of the notes of the left hand, when measured vertically, about 60% of the time and reverses this about 40% of the time.  You can hear for yourself how this creates a feeling of freedom in the flow of the music as the notes of the right hand sing unconstrained by the beat that otherwise would stifle all feeling of freedom in the music.

Even if this idea at first glance may seem attractive, I do not believe it. Bach was in a hurry, when writing his scores, and small lacks of precision could not be avoided. There are many examples of similar "lack of precision" in other scores, e.g. the dedicational score of the Brandenburg concertos. BTW Rübsam's microdesynchronization of the voices, arpeggio and quasi style brisé has also been used by others first and foremost Gustav Leonhardt, but to a much lesser degree than Rübsam.  I think one can say, that a harpsichord – and probably even more a lute-harpsichord – invites the sensitive player to that kind of playing. With Rübsam I do not find the music disjointed, and only rarely does one feel any rhythmical instability. On the contrary the different voices are easier to distinguish from each other (Rübsam names it horizontal playing in contrast to vertical playing, where the music essentially sounds more or less like a sequence of chords), and there is more opportunity for expressive playing.  And not the least there is, because it is impossible to memorize all the small rhythmical irregularities, an important element of spontaneity, which gives the music more life. I wonder though, what Bach would think of the deliberate tempi, after all it is reported, that he chose rather fast tempi. But I do not mind a slow tempo, when it is filled with expression as it is here. So one has to listen attentively to the playing to get the full pleasure from it, and in this way it is challenging to the listener.  And repeated listening pays.
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milk

Quote from: (: premont :) on December 20, 2017, 07:40:53 AM
Even if this idea at first glance may seem attractive, I do not believe it. Bach was in a hurry, when writing his scores, and small lacks of precision could not be avoided. There are many examples of similar "lack of precision" in other scores, e.g. the dedicational score of the Brandenburg concertos. BTW Rübsam's microdesynchronization of the voices, arpeggio and quasi style brisé has also been used by others first and foremost Gustav Leonhardt, but to a much lesser degree than Rübsam.  I think one can say, that a harpsichord – and probably even more a lute-harpsichord – invites the sensitive player to that kind of playing. With Rübsam I do not find the music disjointed, and only rarely does one feel any rhythmical instability. On the contrary the different voices are easier to distinguish from each other (Rübsam names it horizontal playing in contrast to vertical playing, where the music essentially sounds more or less like a sequence of chords), and there is more opportunity for expressive playing.  And not the least there is, because it is impossible to memorize all the small rhythmical irregularities, an important element of spontaneity, which gives the music more life. I wonder though, what Bach would think of the deliberate tempi, after all it is reported, that he chose rather fast tempi. But I do not mind a slow tempo, when it is filled with expression as it is here. So one has to listen attentively to the playing to get the full pleasure from it, and in this way it is challenging to the listener.  And repeated listening pays.
I think this is all right on the money. This is full of spontaneity and if you put this on without paying attention to it, it becomes rather annoying. The reward is in living with it closely. There is a kind of period of adjustment but it's not hard. Of course I'm glad this isn't the only thing but it's a special addition to the interpretation of WTC, I think.   

Mandryka

#1349
Quote from: (: premont :) on December 20, 2017, 07:40:53 AM
Even if this idea at first glance may seem attractive, I do not believe it. Bach was in a hurry, when writing his scores, and small lacks of precision could not be avoided. There are many examples of similar "lack of precision" in other scores, e.g. the dedicational score of the Brandenburg concertos. BTW Rübsam's microdesynchronization of the voices, arpeggio and quasi style brisé has also been used by others first and foremost Gustav Leonhardt, but to a much lesser degree than Rübsam.  I think one can say, that a harpsichord – and probably even more a lute-harpsichord – invites the sensitive player to that kind of playing. With Rübsam I do not find the music disjointed, and only rarely does one feel any rhythmical instability. On the contrary the different voices are easier to distinguish from each other (Rübsam names it horizontal playing in contrast to vertical playing, where the music essentially sounds more or less like a sequence of chords), and there is more opportunity for expressive playing.  And not the least there is, because it is impossible to memorize all the small rhythmical irregularities, an important element of spontaneity, which gives the music more life. I wonder though, what Bach would think of the deliberate tempi, after all it is reported, that he chose rather fast tempi. But I do not mind a slow tempo, when it is filled with expression as it is here. So one has to listen attentively to the playing to get the full pleasure from it, and in this way it is challenging to the listener.  And repeated listening pays.

How good is your statistics? I've forgotten how to do the calculation, but what is the probability of 60/40 ahead/behind difference occurring if the differences are random?  In a work the size of WTC.

Another point to make here is that, for Rubsam, this staggering is not a specially Bachian thing, I think he does much the same in Böhm and Pachelbel. When I first started to listen to the Cello suites I thought that there was a real danger of what he's doing becoming predictable and formulaic, like I would say Koopman can be. But the way Rubsam  uses all these techniques is so sensitive and organic in the music that it's not formulaic at all.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Mandryka

Tell me, has any listened to the Rubsam on Spotify and through  a Flac download? Is the sound difference much better in Flac? (I'm listening through Spotify.)
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Baron Scarpia

Quote from: Mandryka on December 20, 2017, 09:17:12 AM
How good is your statistics? I've forgotten how to do the calculation, but what is the probability of 60/40 ahead/behind occurring is the differences are random?  In a work the size of WTC.

Making some very simple assumptions, such as totally random tendency for note to be ahead or behind, you would expect the deviation from 50/50 to be 1/sqrt(N) where N is the number of notes. If there were a million notes, 1/sqrt(1000000) = 0.001 = 0.1%. You would get 50.1% vs 49.9%. But random is probably a bad assumption. Suppose Bach wrote the treble staff first sometimes and the bass staff first other times. And suppose he tended to lag on the page for the second one he wrote. Then 60/40 seems reasonable.


premont

Quote from: Baron Scarpia on December 20, 2017, 09:27:06 AM
Making some very simple assumptions, such as totally random tendency for note to be ahead or behind, you would expect the deviation from 50/50 to be 1/sqrt(N) where N is the number of notes. If there were a million notes, 1/sqrt(1000000) = 0.001 = 0.1%. You would get 50.1% vs 49.9%. But random is probably a bad assumption. Suppose Bach wrote the treble staff first sometimes and the bass staff first other times. And suppose he tended to lag on the page for the second one he wrote. Then 60/40 seems reasonable.

Thanks Scarpia. You saved my day.
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premont

#1353
Quote from: Mandryka on December 20, 2017, 09:23:48 AM
Tell me, has any listened to the Rubsam on Spotify and through  a Flac download? Is the sound difference much better in Flac? (I'm listening through Spotify.)

I downloaded the recordings in Flac format and burnt them to CDR. The sound is excellent.

Spotify is not available in my country.
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premont

Quote from: Mandryka on December 20, 2017, 09:17:12 AM

Another point to make here is that, for Rubsam, this staggering is not a specially Bachian thing, I think he does much the same in Böhm and Pachelbel. When I first started to listen to the Cello suites I thought that there was a real danger of what he's doing becoming predictable and formulaic, like I would say Koopman can be. But the way Rubsam  uses all these techniques is so sensitive and organic in the music that it's not formulaic at all.

I had this feeling initially already with his Naxos Bach organ recordings, but learned fast the same as you.
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Mandryka

Sound is much better on his Flac downloads than on Spotify, not surprisingly. I shall invest in the lot forthwith, a Christmas present to myself.

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

San Antone

Since learning of the recent WTC released in five volumes by Wolfgang Rubsam played on a lute harpsichord built by Keith Hill I have been listening to the music with great enjoyment.  This short text written by Rubsam gives some background information about the genesis of these recordings (please excuse me if this information has appeared earlier in this thread).

QuoteOn Horizontal Interpretation

About exactly one year ago, my friend Keith Hill had built yet another Lautenwerk in his keyboard shop in Michigan. I immediately loved it because of how it inspired my playing, in effect, talking to me every millisecond as I played.  Keith suggested that I take it home and record the complete Well Tempered Clavier on it, doing something never done before: using Bach's manuscript and literally following the vertical alignment of notes—those meant to be played at about the same time—as they actually appear from Bach's hand in relationship to one another so that, if one pitch appears to the left of another, it is played slightly before those to the right.  This set of 5 Compact Discs, recorded in High Definition audio, using the Kirnberger III well tempered tuning, represents my work on this project over the span of one year.

The Lautenwerk is the perfect instrument because of its overall warm, lilting color that does not rely on either manual or stop changes, allowing the intense individuality of each measure to be retained, while remaining interesting at all times--never predictable.

In my view this rich and inevitable music needs to be unpredictable. More to the point, each voice of the polyphony must be able to sing and interact to fully express Bach's complex linear architecture. Furthermore, even after repeated listening to the same track, listeners should perceive yet more beauty in matters of elegance, individuality, rhythmic complexity, ornamentation and overall color of interpretation by virtue of total independence of voices interacting.

In Bach's music, polyphony creates the harmonic architecture and color, not the other way around.  This is clearly and often significantly misunderstood by even serious keyboard players worldwide. The complex interaction of singing voices that results in this recording is what I refer to as a "horizontal interpretation", as opposed to what seems to have become the run-of-the-mill finger-oriented vertical/chordal/harmonic/mechanical approach to performance, of what J.S. Bach clearly meant us to understand and communicate.  I hope that this recording helps to counter this misunderstanding and serve as a vehicle to assist and re-orient the cultural "inner ear" for Bach and for early music in general. Perhaps beyond that it may encourage further the art of elegant ornamentation especially, but not exclusively in pieces having repeat sections. This skill is not limited to just adding trills but in fact includes all kinds of flourishes, especially in sequence patterns and in many cadences of the Well Tempered Clavier.

Last but not least, I invite each listener to focus with eyes shut on each independent voice and discover how the music embraces the heart and mind.

Wolfgang Rübsam
September 2016


milk

Quote from: San Antone on December 24, 2017, 02:23:49 AM
Since learning of the recent WTC released in five volumes by Wolfgang Rubsam played on a lute harpsichord built by Keith Hill I have been listening to the music with great enjoyment.  This short text written by Rubsam gives some background information about the genesis of these recordings (please excuse me if this information has appeared earlier in this thread).
Thanks for this. This recording continues to occupy my ears, and thoughts, since I first acquired it last week.

Que

#1358
Quote from: San Antone on December 24, 2017, 02:23:49 AM
Since learning of the recent WTC released in five volumes by Wolfgang Rubsam played on a lute harpsichord built by Keith Hill I have been listening to the music with great enjoyment.  This short text written by Rubsam gives some background information about the genesis of these recordings (please excuse me if this information has appeared earlier in this thread).

Thanks for the background information. His line of reasoning seems very consistent with his performances.

Q

Mandryka

#1359
I've been listening to Glen Wilson. Here are some random thoughts on Rubsam.

One think that  seems to mark Rubsam out is that there's not a moment, not a bar, of harmonic playing: the voices are independent everywhere. Wilson has periods of horizontal voice leading, but periods of very chordal, soloist/ accompaniment type playing.

Another thing which seems to be a Rubsam trait is his consistent sweetness and mellowness. You never get a glimpse of what Don Satz calls "the dark side", and for Don this is to trample over something essential.

Rubsam's ornamentation in WTC is, I think, a real achievement.

Rübsam mentions  non-predictability, quite rightly. Even in very formal structures like fugues his application of the  horizontal approach seems to make the music sound constantly creating itself, consistently fresh - like what Debussy achieved in Jeux and Boulez in Marteau sans Maître! This is a big big revelation.

It must be hard to play horizontally, I mean  you need to use judgement! Rübsam's very musical I think, a poet. But you could see how in less passionate hands it would fall completely flat.  He's a pastoral poet, and he's shown how the pastoral mode really can work in WTC.  I hope that someday, someone with epic sensibilities will play and record WTC horizontally.

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen