Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier

[milk]

these recordings of WTC by Genzoh Takehisa are some of the wildest I've heard. It's worth a listen, really. The instruments sound great and are well recorded, however, I wonder if some people might passionately hate it.

[Mandryka]

In Roger Woodward's booklet essay to his recording of WTC we read

Certain aspects of DWC Book II made
references to such great traditions as well
as to contemporary thought. The opening
six pitches to Bach's Fugue 18 spring to
mind. They are virtually identical to those
of Domenico Scarlatti's early D-minor
sonata composed in Münster in 1738.

He gives no more information to help identify the Scarlatti sonata. What is the D minor sonata which Scarlatti composed in 1738 where there's a resemblance to the WTC fugue?

[JBS]

In Roger Woodward's booklet essay to his recording of WTC we read

He gives no more information to help identify the Scarlatti sonata. What is the D minor sonata which Scarlatti composed in 1738 where there's a resemblance to the WTC fugue?

When was D Scarlatti in Munster?  After 1729 he was living in Spain, apparently in Madrid in 1738. And he was 52/53 in that year, so why call it an "early" sonata?

The "30 Exercices" were published in 1738, perhaps that's what Woodward was referring to.

[goes off to dig a bit more]

Some of the manuscript sources are known as the Munster collections.  The contents are included in this pdf from the Wayback machine, but no hint at chronology.
https://web.archive.org/web/20140913154246/http://chrishail.net/collections.pdf

[Mandryka]

K5, 9 and 18 are in D minor in the 30 exercises., So I guess the question now is, is the similarity between the opening bars of these two pieces of harpsichord music more likely to be a coincidence than evidence of Bach borrowing?

https://www.youtube.com/v/myXswRvpNFc


https://www.youtube.com/v/k6svD9i66GM

As far as I know there is no other evidence put forward of Bach being aware of Scarlatti?  Did Bach own the 30 exercises? I don't think so but I could be wrong.

[milk]

Lately I've been listening to Scott Ross which IS quite interesting. Ross doesn't use much Rubato and he seems to express momentum. But, paradoxically, he doesn't seem only rigid to me - or at least doesn't seem unpleasant. He's not tapping away like Gould. I suppose there's more subtle means of articulation happening but I think he stresses how the musical pieces work/move. It can be a little tiring after a while but it's enjoyable too.
There's not the emotion or reflection you find in others.

[Mandryka]

Lately I've been listening to Scott Ross which IS quite interesting. Ross doesn't use much Rubato and he seems to express momentum. But, paradoxically, he doesn't seem only rigid to me - or at least doesn't seem unpleasant. He's not tapping away like Gould. I suppose there's more subtle means of articulation happening but I think he stresses how the musical pieces work/move. It can be a little tiring after a while but it's enjoyable too.
There's not the emotion or reflection you find in others.

It's too brutal for me.

[Mookalafalas]

Put on Gieseking's WTC for first time. At first, something in the sound really bothered me. The range was there, but it sounded like it was from an old tape that had started to decay and then been restored...however, I ended up playing both disks with great pleasure.  Unusually fast and lively.

[Mookalafalas]

It's too brutal for me.

A Brutal WTC
   I've gotta hear this, immediately

[amw]

I like Scott Ross's playing in the WTC but I have a hard time with the instrument and especially the tuning (historically accurate as it may be). Like a lot of Blandine Verlet Astrée recordings it was disconcerting enough for me to regret obtaining the set. I'm not sure if I will listen to it again, maybe someday.

I acquired three new-to-me sets recently—Peter Hill, Michaël Lévinas & Roger Woodward. I'm not sure which one I will listen to first.

[Mandryka]

Like a lot of Blandine Verlet Astrée recordings it was disconcerting enough for me to regret obtaining the set. I'm not sure if I will listen to it again, maybe someday.

She's the Martha Argerich of the harpsichord.

[Mandryka]

I like Scott Ross's playing in the WTC but I have a hard time with the instrument and especially the tuning (historically accurate as it may be).

Isn't it the one that he always used, the unrestored instrument at Assas? I don't know how it was tuned for him.

[San Antone]

Cross-posted from the Listening thread:

Till Fellner

Have been enjoying this quite a bit.  No fireworks or anything out of the ordinary, just beautiful playing throughout.  I can listen to this without finding myself wanting to switch it off, which is usually the case with the WTC after a while.

[aukhawk]

Yeah, 8 Preludes & Fugues is about my limit, especially from Book 2.

[Jo498]

This was the advantage of LPs as typically one side contained 5-7 P&F...

[Mookalafalas]

Got the Scott Ross and have been playing it quite a lot.
    Perhaps I understand where Mandryka is coming from. He plays very aggressively, pushing the instrument and the tempos--in some pieces, certainly the early ones of book 1. Not being particularly delicate myself, I like it a lot. Although I often really enjoy very precise, "Separate note" approaches, I'm finding this fully bodied, vigorous, immersive style to be fun, exciting, refreshing, and enjoyable. At times, however, he slows things way down (well, relatively, anyway) and sounds like an almost different person...  Anyway, I thank you all for bringing this to my attention.  I've gotten many, many hours of enjoyment from Scott's Scarlatti, and am not sure why I had thought his Bach would be less pleasurable. After a few disks, I'm thinking this will be the perfect companion set for the Leonhardt Bach box, which is one of my treasures.

[amw]

Good recordings of the Prelude in B flat major BWV 890
Ralph Kirkpatrick
Céline Frisch
Vladimir Ashkenazy

Mediocre recordings of the Prelude in B flat major BWV 890
András Schiff (ECM)
Scott Ross
Evgeny Koroliov

Bad recordings of the Prelude in B flat major BWV 890
Apparently, every other one in existence??

I listened to the first 20 seconds or so of about thirty different recordings of this prelude, a piece I'm interested in learning, and find that it almost invariably gets turned into an ultralegato andante "Szene am Bach", especially by pianists. Bach put it in 12/16, the same metre as the Gigue of the G major French Suite, and with lots of virtuosic runs and hand crossings, to the extent that the only thing keeping us from thinking of it as a homage to Scarlatti is that there's no evidence Bach had ever heard of him. Even if it's not played fast (and eg Frisch isn't particularly fast) it should, I think, come across as vivacious and full of energy. So I kind of just.... don't get what's up with all those super slow, super smooth performances. Does anyone else have strong opinions about this prelude or is it just me?

[Mandryka]

Good recordings of the Prelude in B flat major BWV 890
Ralph Kirkpatrick
Céline Frisch
Vladimir Ashkenazy

Mediocre recordings of the Prelude in B flat major BWV 890
András Schiff (ECM)
Scott Ross
Evgeny Koroliov

Bad recordings of the Prelude in B flat major BWV 890
Apparently, every other one in existence??

I listened to the first 20 seconds or so of about thirty different recordings of this prelude, a piece I'm interested in learning, and find that it almost invariably gets turned into an ultralegato andante "Szene am Bach", especially by pianists. Bach put it in 12/16, the same metre as the Gigue of the G major French Suite, and with lots of virtuosic runs and hand crossings, to the extent that the only thing keeping us from thinking of it as a homage to Scarlatti is that there's no evidence Bach had ever heard of him. Even if it's not played fast (and eg Frisch isn't particularly fast) it should, I think, come across as vivacious and full of energy. So I kind of just.... don't get what's up with all those super slow, super smooth performances. Does anyone else have strong opinions about this prelude or is it just me?

The stereotypically scarlattiest, and I don't mean that as a compliment, is John Butt.

I think it should be dancing and joyful, but this is Bach, the joy should be angels dancing, not imps. There's a lovely piano version by Andrei Vieru, if you haven't got the CD it's here on youtube but you'll have to dig into it to find the relevant bit, I'm too lazy.

https://www.youtube.com/v/w8L8qdIL1Pk

[San Antone]

Good recordings of the Prelude in B flat major BWV 890
Ralph Kirkpatrick
Céline Frisch
Vladimir Ashkenazy

Mediocre recordings of the Prelude in B flat major BWV 890
András Schiff (ECM)
Scott Ross
Evgeny Koroliov

Bad recordings of the Prelude in B flat major BWV 890
Apparently, every other one in existence??

I listened to the first 20 seconds or so of about thirty different recordings of this prelude, a piece I'm interested in learning, and find that it almost invariably gets turned into an ultralegato andante "Szene am Bach", especially by pianists. Bach put it in 12/16, the same metre as the Gigue of the G major French Suite, and with lots of virtuosic runs and hand crossings, to the extent that the only thing keeping us from thinking of it as a homage to Scarlatti is that there's no evidence Bach had ever heard of him. Even if it's not played fast (and eg Frisch isn't particularly fast) it should, I think, come across as vivacious and full of energy. So I kind of just.... don't get what's up with all those super slow, super smooth performances. Does anyone else have strong opinions about this prelude or is it just me?

Gould plays it like you imagine it ought to be done.  I  must admit to liking a more relaxed approach.  Richter does a nice job, as does Ivo Janssen - but he may be too relaxed for your tastes.  I can imagine harpsichordists would naturally want to take the piece faster, whereas a pianist might want to luxuriate in Bach's counterpoint more.

[Mandryka]

Here's an organ chorale with similar music to 890, all about angels, pastoral, BWV 607 from Orgelbuchlein

https://www.youtube.com/v/dZSGU_ISSC8

[amw]

Gould plays it as an absolutely undifferentiated stream of semiquavers, which is definitely not how I imagine it ought to. Gigues require a springing trochaic rhythm (which is very well notated in the text) whereas Gould refuses to use any emphasis whatsoever for some reason. I grant that angels may sometimes dance a gigue as well, but the WTC is generally quite focused on the incarnate world with the crucified Christ as its most divine figure (the fugue BWV 869, at least in Ledbetters opinion).

Vieru is alright—I didn't come across his recording in my initial search for some reason. Definitely better than the average, though I will evaluate properly at a later date.