Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier

[milk]

I just received the book Bach's Well-tempered Clavier: The 48 Preludes and Fugues by David Ledbetter and started reading it this afternoon.



In the first page he writes this: "If all of western art music were to be lost and only one work survive, this [WTC] would be the first choice of many."

I can agree with this statement.  Would you?  If not the WTC, what work would you suggest?

If there are enough responses, we could create a new thread.

Yes and I can't think of a close second.

[j winter]

That's a toughie.  Not to get all lawyerly, but it depends on how you define work.

The WTC is a collection of individual preludes and fugues.  Along the same lines then, are Beethoven's 32 piano sonatas a work, or are we obliged to consider the pieces individually, since they were not published all at once?  Are we talking about a single opus number?

If we can count all 32, it's still tough but I'd personally go with Beethoven.  If we must take them individually, then I agree that the WTC is as good a candidate for preservation as I can think of --- something like the Waldstein is wonderful, but it's apples & oranges to compare it with the WTC's 3+ hours of sustained invention...

Nothing like a good Hulk vs Thor thread... 

[Mandryka]

I just received the book Bach's Well-tempered Clavier: The 48 Preludes and Fugues by David Ledbetter and started reading it this afternoon.



If not the WTC, what work would you suggest?

The Ring

[ritter]

...

In the first page he writes this: "If all of western art music were to be lost and only one work survive, this [WTC] would be the first choice of many."

I can agree with this statement.  Would you?  If not the WTC, what work would you suggest?

If there are enough responses, we could create a new thread.

Parsifal. As a friend of mine says, "Parsifal encompasses most of the music that came before it, and a good chunk of what came after it". 

[Jo498]

WTC would be cheating, IMO, as it is not one work, but each volume is a collection of 48 pieces.

[milk]

WTC would be cheating, IMO, as it is not one work, but each volume is a collection of 48 pieces.

and I imagine slipping this cheat by if I'm allowed to take something when I'm exiled. "Um, yeah, you know, WTC books 1&2 please. Sure it's one piece!"

[San Antone]

That's a toughie.  Not to get all lawyerly, but it depends on how you define work.

The WTC is a collection of individual preludes and fugues.  Along the same lines then, are Beethoven's 32 piano sonatas a work, or are we obliged to consider the pieces individually, since they were not published all at once?  Are we talking about a single opus number?

If we can count all 32, it's still tough but I'd personally go with Beethoven.  If we must take them individually, then I agree that the WTC is as good a candidate for preservation as I can think of --- something like the Waldstein is wonderful, but it's apples & oranges to compare it with the WTC's 3+ hours of sustained invention...

Nothing like a good Hulk vs Thor thread... 

The WTC was at least published as a book (actually two books) of 24 preludes & fugues.  But even if they were never conceived of being played back to front, I think it is a reasonable stretch to consider the two books one work in conception.  Not sure about the 32 sonatas.

But this is not designed to be an Olympic event.   

[Mandryka]

The WTC was at least published as a book (actually two books) of 24 preludes & fugues.  But even if they were never conceived of being played back to front, I think it is a reasonable stretch to consider the two books one work in conception.  Not sure about the 32 sonatas.

But this is not designed to be an Olympic event.   

One work in conception like, for example, the Oxford English Dictionary is one work in conception, a set of definitions arranged alphabetically. WTC is a set of pieces of music arranged by key starting at C and ascending by half tones and alternating major and minor. It's not one work in conception like, for example, the suite BWV 1004 is one work, with internal, poetic coherence, an order which is poetically, rather technically, significant.

[San Antone]

One work in conception like, for example, the Oxford English Dictionary is one work in conception, a set of definitions arranged alphabetically. WTC is a set of pieces of music arranged by key starting at C and ascending by half tones and alternating major and minor. It's not one work in conception like, for example, the suite BWV 1004 is one work, with internal, poetic coherence, an order which is poetically, rather technically, significant.

The cover page to the WTC describes the preludes and fugues as having a conception, "for the use and improvement of musical youth eager to learn and for the particular delight of those already skilled in this discipline."

But I had hoped we could avoid the debate on what is a work and just make some suggestions in the spirit of good fun.  I think your nomination of The Ring a good choice.

[milk]

Andras Schiff makes a lot of arguments here that I suspect will incite disagreement. He's very interesting and gives me some insight into why a performer might need a lot of experience and wisdom to connect with the music. But some of what he says is contentious.

https://youtu.be/KbJI-tP6tNA

[San Antone]

Andras Schiff makes a lot of arguments here that I suspect will incite disagreement. He's very interesting and gives me some insight into why a performer might need a lot of experience and wisdom to connect with the music. But some of what he says is contentious.

https://youtu.be/KbJI-tP6tNA

Thanks.  Very informative.

[San Antone]

The points Schiff makes about instrument choice in the WTC is basically that a single instrument is not perfectly suitable for all of the preludes/fugues:

When the discussion shifted to the question of the most authentic instrument for performing Bach's keyboard music today, Schiff pointed out that while the two-manual harpsichord is ideally suited to works Bach wrote expressly for it, such as the Italian Concerto, the harpsichord can't compete with the modern piano's ability to reproduce the loud–soft dynamic of vocal-like appoggiaturas in The Well-Tempered Clavier. Book I is a collection of various preludes and fugues Bach had written in the years preceding its publication, and Schiff conceded that the composer must have had the organ originally in mind for the A minor Fugue of Book I because it demands an ending pedal note that a pianist can't produce without turning to the sustaining pedal. "This A minor Fugue is the only example in all of Bach where I must use the pedal," he said. "The pedal can do damage in Bach, destroying the voice leading, clarity of the counterpoint.

His point about the appoggiaturas is pretty convincing, IMO. 

[Mandryka]

In order to be "musical" schiff asserts  that the grace note has to sound louder than the melody note in an appoggiatura, and that on a harpsichord you can only achieve this effect by making unacceptable agogic changes to the rhythm. He gives as an example the F minor prelude from Book 2 -- BWV 881. (I note as an aside that I think there are appoggiaturas in, for example, Louis Couperin preludes. I'm not sure what schiff would say about them.)

Here's how Leonhardt deals with it

https://www.youtube.com/v/e2IeRFxTKSA

And Schiff

https://www.youtube.com/v/HSUmYPny3qI

and a rather elegant harpsichord solution from Hill, though I'm not sure whether Bach meant that! very good though, and a nice instrument.

https://www.youtube.com/v/JC7oWQRV6Pg

Chorzempa uses a piano, by the way, and plays the appoggiaturas not unlike Hill.

[San Antone]

In order to be "musical" schiff asserts  that the grace note has to sound louder than the melody note in an appoggiatura, and that on a harpsichord you can only achieve this effect by making unacceptable agogic changes to the rhythm. He gives as an example the F minor prelude from Book 2 -- BWV 881.

Here's how Leonhardt deals with it

https://www.youtube.com/v/e2IeRFxTKSA

And Schiff

https://www.youtube.com/v/HSUmYPny3qI

and a rather elegant harpsichord solution from Hill, though I'm not sure whether Bach meant that! very good though, and a nice instrument.

https://www.youtube.com/v/JC7oWQRV6Pg

Chorzempa uses a piano, by the way, and plays the appoggiaturas not unlike Hill.

Yeah, I prefer the piano in this piece, and think Schiff makes a fair point about the obvious manner to play that figure with dynamics. 

[Mandryka]

Well I don't think he makes the point fairly, on the contrary, I think he tries to bulldoze away any opposition with all that talk of "unmusical" and "Bulgarian rhythms"

By the way, listen to what Roger Woodward does with the prelude - despite having dynamics! An "unmusical" decision? I think Schiff's fill of shit there.

[San Antone]

Well I don't think he makes the point fairly, on the contrary, I think he tries to bulldoze away any opposition with all that talk of "unmusical" and "Bulgarian rhythms"

By the way, listen to what Roger Woodward does with the prelude - despite having dynamics! An "unmusical" decision? I think Schiff's fill of shit there.

It is fairly obvious for any trained musician to play these figures "as if sung" so that the appoggiatura would be emphasized and resolved with a softer dynamic.  Schiff is not "full of shit", at least I don't think he is.  It is actually a very straight-forward musical concept for which musicians are all agreed.  The only problem in executing this technique is for instruments like the harpsichord which have no method of dynamic variation and must come up with some agogic phrasing, hence his Bulgarian rhythm reference.

His overall point is that there is no single instrument for which every prelude and fugue is ideally suited.  But for Bach's day, the clavichord would be used for dynamic changes, but may not have the range, the harpsichord may have the range but lack the dynamic control and sustain, which the organ would have, as well as the range, but again not the dynamic aspect.

For us, the piano is ideally suited for some of the pieces over the harpsichord, or the clavichord or the organ, this prelude being one of them.

[Mandryka]

It is fairly obvious for any trained musician . . . it is actually a very straightforward musical concept for which musicians are all agreed

That's exactly the sort of browbeating which Schiff indulges in, and which gets my  back up. It wasn't obvious to Roger Woodward. Is he not a trained musician? Is he unmusical? By all means argue that he made a bad decision, but just saying "it's obvious" or "it's unmusical" is not an argument.

Now, distinguish between

1. The best way to play XYX is . . . and this is only possible if you have dynamics . . .

2. One way to play XYZ If you have dynamics is . . .

3. The only musical way to play XYZ is . . . anything else is unmusical.

[San Antone]

That's exactly the sort of browbeating which Schiff indulges in, and which gets up back up. It wasn't obvious to Roger Woodward. Is he not a trained musician? Is he unmusical? By all means argue that he made a bad decision, but just saying "it's obvious" or "it's unmusical" is not an argument.

Now, distinguish between

1. The best way to play XYX is . . . and this is only possible if you have dynamics . . .

2. One way to play XYZ If you have dynamics is . . .

3. The only musical way to play XYZ is . . . anything else is unmusical.

Some pianists might think that it would be Romanticizing the music too much and purposely try to mimic the harpsichord.  I haven't listened to Roger Woodward is a while and don't remember how he plays these figures, but that might be why.  Schiff does not use the sustain pedal because he thinks it muddies the counterpoint, but argues convincingly, at least IMO, how for this prelude the piano is better suited.

Only a harpsichord chauvinist would argue the point, IMO.   

[Mandryka]

Only a harpsichord chauvinist would argue the point, IMO.   

That's a very stupid thing to say.

[San Antone]

That's a very stupid thing to say.

I was not entirely serious, hence the emoji.  You may be too ego-invested in this issue to relax and see some humor.

Btw, Schiff does not say that how Leonhardt plays is "unmusical" but if someone were to sing the figure in that manner, it would be unmusical.  Iow, for any instrument that can execute dynamics, these figures are played in that manner, to not do so is unmusical.  But if your instrument cannot execute dynamics, then you must come up with some other musical way to play these figures.