Bach: Well-Tempered Clavier

Started by Bogey, May 06, 2007, 01:26:30 PM

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DarkAngel

#380
Quote from: Bulldog on December 19, 2009, 05:00:29 PM
No bonus material; it's a matter of tempos.

Bulldog, is it purely slower tempo or does Watchorn include repeats other performers usually don't?

I read that email response Sonic referred to by Watchorn and even without the 9 minute "bonus" material the total timing is 177 minutes for his WTC II.......substantially longer than average WTC II

The Tureck/DG WTC II which is slowest tempo I have heard total time 144 minutes
Speedy tempo Gould/Sony WTC II total time 104 minutes

Dancing Divertimentian

Quote from: DarkAngel on December 19, 2009, 06:35:43 AM
Hewitt
I got the new WTC set and compared it to older set. It is basically just a touch slower and more refined overall, but to be honest I will keep the original set and sell new one. Nothing really to be very critical about, great sound and elegant refined performances.....the critics will love it to death and good safe recommendation. Hewitt said in notes she has a freer style from exposure to french baroque like Couperin, and has gained experience form many years of live WTC performances.......still I find the first set more interesting which I suspect will be a minority view

I haven't heard Hewitt's new WTC but I'm on board with enjoying her earlier Bach recordings. I like her subtlety - all kinds of little things going on that bring the music to life.
Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

Scarpia

#382
Quote from: DarkAngel on December 19, 2009, 06:35:43 AM
Hewitt
I got the new WTC set and compared it to older set. It is basically just a touch slower and more refined overall, but to be honest I will keep the original set and sell new one. Nothing really to be very critical about, great sound and elegant refined performances.....the critics will love it to death and good safe recommendation. Hewitt said in notes she has a freer style from exposure to french baroque like Couperin, and has gained experience form many years of live WTC performances.......still I find the first set more interesting which I suspect will be a minority view



Actually, I thought her Couperin recordings were dreadful.  If that experience informs her new recordings it would make me tend to stay away.    I have and admire the first set, and with all of the different options, to get a second set by the same performer seems like a waste of resources.

Coopmv

Quote from: Bulldog on December 19, 2009, 05:06:07 PM

Of course, Coopmv also has expertise - finding the cheapest source for recordings.

Perhaps you should learn to be more financially savvy, buddy.  Our disdain for each other is mutual, lets leave it at that.

Scarpia

Quote from: Bulldog on December 19, 2009, 05:06:07 PM
That's a rather insulting and/or misinformed statement.  To begin with, there is a major distinction to be made between piano music and baroque keyboard music.  George is certainly one of our resident experts on piano music; I pay much attention to his recommendations and frequent insights.  However, for Bach and other baroque keyboard music, members such as Antoine, Que and Premont have much to offer.  I'm sure I've left out some other experts and apologize in advance.

Of course, Coopmv also has expertise - finding the cheapest source for recordings.

People here are mostly experts on their own taste.  I don't see see the opinions of anyone here as authoritative.  I have noticed that there are some here whose tastes are similar to my own, whose opinions I therefore tend to pay attention to.   But George is not in that category, so I find my self not influenced very much by the opinions he expresses.  On the other hand, Bulldog's comments on Bach performance are always taken note of.   ;D

Coopmv

Quote from: Scarpia on December 19, 2009, 06:31:50 PM
People here are mostly experts on their own taste.  I don't see see the opinions of anyone here as authoritative. 

Scarpia,  You hit the nail right on its head.  I do respect George for his knowledge of piano works.   But when it comes to other subgenres of classical music, I do not see opinions from anyone here as cast in stone.  If someone feels this way, that is too bad ...

DarkAngel

QuoteWatchorn also unique in instrument tuning system used as outlined on this website:
http://www.larips.com/

Will run this by a second time to see if there are any takers...........
Can this graphic scoll really be a visual instruction guide for how Bach tunes his keyboards, any comments observations most welcome.  If this is true my respect for Bach grow even more profound.

If Mr Watchorn reads these threads would love to hear his take on this

Bulldog

Quote from: Coopmv on December 19, 2009, 06:25:15 PM
Perhaps you should learn to be more financially savvy, buddy.  Our disdain for each other is mutual, lets leave it at that.

I can't; "I finish things" :D.

I've been looking for any opportunity to repeat that line used by Clint in Gran Torino. :D

Bulldog

Quote from: DarkAngel on December 20, 2009, 09:18:44 AM
Will run this by a second time to see if there are any takers...........
Can this graphic scoll really be a visual instruction guide for how Bach tunes his keyboards, any comments observations most welcome.  If this is true my respect for Bach grow even more profound.

It makes sense to me, and Lehman's discovery has received a good reception from musicologists.  In addition, performers such as Watchorn, Egarr and others have totally embraced it (as far as I can tell).

DarkAngel



Just listened to 3 CD Schiff/Decca WTC I, II and was better than I expected, these date back to 1984-85 and are fairly cheap on the used market since they get lost in the mix of the newest releases. I expected them to be a bit stodgy and stiff, but Schiff is surprisingly flexible and very competitive with some of the current big names.......

For instance I just revisited Hewitt/Hyperion and do not think Schiff yeilds any ground to that version which receives a rosette in Penguin Guide. I am not saying it is best piano version since Gould & Feinberg to name two I rate a bit higher, but just remind people these fine versions are available if not forgotten.....

I specifically hunted these down because the new Schiff/ECM performances of Goldberg & Partitas greatly impressed me, I plan to add any new ECM versions as they are released  :)

Scarpia

Quote from: Bulldog on December 20, 2009, 10:08:21 AM
It makes sense to me, and Lehman's discovery has received a good reception from musicologists.  In addition, performers such as Watchorn, Egarr and others have totally embraced it (as far as I can tell).

It may or may not have anything to do with the tuning.  When I looked into it a while back it struck me that interpretation of those various loops and squiggles was far from obvious, and subject to multiple interpretations.  The interpretation they made struck me as counter-intuitive.  If Bach though the tuning method was so important, why didn't he notate it in a way that could be deciphered?  Aside from that, the system that is claimed to be specified by the squiggle is not that different from other standard tunings used at the time, such as the Valotti method.

Scarpia

Quote from: DarkAngel on December 20, 2009, 04:07:28 PM


Just listened to 3 CD Schiff/Decca WTC I, II and was better than I expected, these date back to 1984-85 and are fairly cheap on the used market since they get lost in the mix of the newest releases. I expected them to be a bit stodgy and stiff, but Schiff is surprisingly flexible and very competitive with some of the current big names.......

For instance I just revisited Hewitt/Hyperion and do not think Schiff yeilds any ground to that version which receives a rosette in Penguin Guide. I am not saying it is best piano version since Gould & Feinberg to name two I rate a bit higher, but just remind people these fine versions are available if not forgotten.....

I specifically hunted these down because the new Schiff/ECM performances of Goldberg & Partitas greatly impressed me, I plan to add any new ECM versions as they are released  :)

The only thing I find surprising in this is the pre-conception that Schiff would be stiff or unengaging.  For me he is near the top of the pile.

Bulldog

Quote from: Scarpia on December 20, 2009, 05:17:29 PM
It may or may not have anything to do with the tuning.  When I looked into it a while back it struck me that interpretation of those various loops and squiggles was far from obvious, and subject to multiple interpretations.  The interpretation they made struck me as counter-intuitive.  If Bach though the tuning method was so important, why didn't he notate it in a way that could be deciphered?  Aside from that, the system that is claimed to be specified by the squiggle is not that different from other standard tunings used at the time, such as the Valotti method.

Have you heard any Bach performances using the Lehman system?  What do you think?

Scarpia

#393
Quote from: Bulldog on December 20, 2009, 06:12:36 PM
Have you heard any Bach performances using the Lehman system?  What do you think?

I became very interested in the issue after reading about Watchorn's recording.  Then I got a copy of Watchorn's recording of the Toccatas, which I really didn't like, so I never listened to Watchorn's WTC.

I can't say it can disprove it, but Lehman's interpretation of the ornament on Bach's manuscript doesn't convince me. 

I found this treatment of temperament to be very interesting.

http://pages.globetrotter.net/roule/temper.htm#_nr_340

There were numerous tuning systems known in Bach's time which produced a "well tempered" instrument. 

For the curious, Lehman's argument is presented at http://www.larips.com/

DarkAngel

#394


For fans of Richter/RCA WTC...........
I saw Jens list of top new & reissue Cds for 2009 and there was newly remastered versions of both books of Richter WTC set so fans can take what action they deem appropriate. I am not a huge fan of the Richter set so I keep the old versions.

http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1471

DarkAngel

#395


Finally received my Glen Wilson/Teldec (Arkiv re-issue) WTC.............I really like Wilsons overall presentation and sound, but for some reason on many sections I hear meachanical instrument noise, a click/clack sound from operation of instrument. I occassionally hear it on any harpsicord recording but seems to be more emphasized here, enough to be distracting. Perhaps has to do with location of recording mike, or just design of this harpsicord

Am I imagining this?

Bulldog

Quote from: DarkAngel on December 31, 2009, 04:38:20 PM


Finally received my Glen Wilson/Teldec (Arkiv re-issue) WTC.............I really like Wilsons overall presentation and sound, but for some reason on many sections I hear meachanical instrument noise, a click/clack sound from operation of instrument. I occassionally hear it on any harpsicord recording but seems to be more emphasized here, enough to be distracting. Perhaps has to do with location of recording mike, or just design of this harpsicord

Am I imagining this?

No, you have good ears, perhaps too good.  It's a frequent noise, but I find it rather distant, similar to the sound of castanets and in line with the rhythmic patterns.  Doesn't bother me at all. 

DarkAngel

Quote from: Bulldog on January 01, 2010, 12:27:37 AM
No, you have good ears, perhaps too good.  It's a frequent noise, but I find it rather distant, similar to the sound of castanets and in line with the rhythmic patterns.  Doesn't bother me at all.

Yes that desciribes the sound, like a castanet click/clack......would not cause me to sell this WTC, just something to be aware of.

Performance wise like many here have said Glen Wilson is one of the best available, very balanced fluid sound that would appeal to broad number of listeners, the fine sounding keyboard is a replica harpsicord after Christian Zell 1728 Hamburg. I have a couple more harpsicord WTCs coming and then I will have to make some general comparisons


premont

Quote from: Bulldog on January 01, 2010, 12:27:37 AM
No, you have good ears, perhaps too good.  It's a frequent noise, but I find it rather distant, similar to the sound of castanets and in line with the rhythmic patterns.  Doesn't bother me at all.

Yes, like the tracker noise from an organ - part of the nature of the instrument.
γνῶθι σεαυτόν

Bulldog

Quote from: DarkAngel on January 01, 2010, 03:55:21 AM
Yes that desciribes the sound, like a castanet click/clack......would not cause me to sell this WTC, just something to be aware of.

Performance wise like many here have said Glen Wilson is one of the best available, very balanced fluid sound that would appeal to broad number of listeners, the fine sounding keyboard is a replica harpsicord after Christian Zell 1728 Hamburg. I have a couple more harpsicord WTCs coming and then I will have to make some general comparisons

One thing I hadn't considered concerning the mechanical noises.  Is it possible that the sound on the Arkiv on-demand copies is a little different?