Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg

Started by rubio, May 25, 2008, 07:34:13 AM

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ritter

Quote from: Spineur on January 31, 2016, 11:41:22 AM
It will be that same staging which will be used in the upcoming production at the Paris Opera which I will attend.

https://www.operadeparis.fr/en/season-15-16/opera/die-meistersinger-von-nurnberg

I will give you a full account and try too take some picture although its forbidden...
A Spanish friend of mine is off to Paris over Easter to wathch the prodcution at the Bastille. I hope you enjoy it.... Do let us know your impressions, please!  :)

I was lucky enough to see Herheim's staging of Parsifal live in Bayreuth in 2012. One of the gretatest things I have ever experienced in a theatre. A pity the DVD release seems to have been vetoed by the festival management.  >:(

(poco) Sforzando

Quote from: ritter on February 01, 2016, 07:53:50 AM
A Spanish friend of mine is off to Paris over Easter to wathch the prodcution at the Bastille. I hope you enjoy it.... Do let us know your impressions, please!  :)

I was lucky enough to see Herheim's staging of Parsifal live in Bayreuth in 2012. One of the gretatest things I have ever experienced in a theatre. A pity the DVD release seems to have been vetoed by the festival management.  >:(

I'm pretty sure the Herheim Parsifal was available on YouTube at one point, and I think I downloaded it but since I'm away from home I can't be sure. I know for a fact that the Herheim Meistersinger has been issued on DVD, as I remember produced in Vienna and conducted by Gatti. It seems very typical these days for opera houses to share new productions, doubtless as a way of curbing expenses.
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

(poco) Sforzando

Quote from: Lisztianwagner on March 22, 2015, 06:35:21 AM
I understand this point of view; but unfortunately nowadays it's not very simple to portray Walther as a young knight, because there aren't many excellent wagnerian heldentenors who can sing the role (as well as excellent wagnerian heldentenors in general), and those ones still in activity start getting old. I think if Heppner or Botha sing very well and they can do fine performances, you could even close an eye about their physical aspect.

There's also Jonas Kauffmann, who is splendid even if I may be misspelling his name. FWIW, I saw Heppner at the Met the same season they were making that DVD, and he was having considerable vocal trouble, cracking on the high A's in the Prize Song twice my night. Obviously they patched that up for the DVD. But much as I like the staging that's now being retired, I thought the Met's earlier staging was even better.

For recordings, I vote for Kempe and Kubelik, of those I've heard. I gave away Knappertbusch both because of the unpleasant sound and the unpleasant tenor.
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

ritter

Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on February 01, 2016, 09:32:51 AM
I'm pretty sure the Herheim Parsifal was available on YouTube at one point, and I think I downloaded it but since I'm away from home I can't be sure. I know for a fact that the Herheim Meistersinger has been issued on DVD, as I remember produced in Vienna and conducted by Gatti. It seems very typical these days for opera houses to share new productions, doubtless as a way of curbing expenses.
Yep, the Parsifal was shown in cinemas a week after I saw it in the theatre, and then posted on YouTube, but I think it's been pulled down since then (last time I saw, one act was still to be seen).

The Meistersinger from Salzburg is available on DVD...

[asin]B00KVOBZC2[/asin]

...and will travel to the MET next IIRC.

Bayreuth, on the other hand, does not share its productions with other theatres.

(poco) Sforzando

Quote from: ritter on February 01, 2016, 09:42:00 AM
Bayreuth, on the other hand, does not share its productions with other theatres.

Otherwise we might be faced with the Katharina Wagner . . . .
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

Spineur

#65
Recension "Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg" Paris Opera / Herheim staging

It is the same Salzburg staging as for the 200th anniversary, with the same sets, the same costumes, and the same choreography for the danced sections.  It will also be the staging used by The Scala and the Metropolitan Opera in some unknown time. 

In spirit, it is quite close to the excellent Glyndebourne staging released in blu-ray, as it insist on the profoundly moral and humanist aspects of the work erasing any reference to National-Socialism (From their point of view, the election of a Meistersinger was that of a Führer - a total madness when you see these beautiful stagings).

Herheim staging oscillates from Wagner/Sachs to a fantasy world of puppet/leprechaun which enact the comedy.  It also draws from 19th century popular culture in its references.

The differences are in the distribution.  All performers (especially Gerald Finley/Sachs also in this role in the Glyndebourne version) were quite good, with perhaps a less convincing Walter (the american tenor Brandon Javanovich) compared to the warm and round voice of  Marco Jentzsch in the Glynderbourne production.   Toby Spence camps a David full of personality and Bo Skovhus assumes so perfectly Beckmesser ridicule, that he becomes almost adorable in this role.  The direction by Philippe Jordan was luminous and dynamic, really wonderful.

During the prologue we see Sachs (aka Wagner) in his interior in a nightgown remembering the puppet theaters of his childhood



Note that in the front there are a sculture of Beethoven and under a green rag one of Wagner.  Sachs is in the photo between a cabinet and a dresser which will serve as sets in the second act.
At the extreme left of the photo is the desk where Sachs composes which is transformed after a clever morphing in the first act as  Nurnberg Saint Catherine church.


An interesting detail in the 1st act: As David (Sachs assistant) explains the rules for the competition, he opens a book (the one at the left on the photo) which title is "Des Knaben Wunderhorn".
Herheim is not aluding to Mahler lieders, bu the the popular poetry book collected by Brentano throughout germany and published in 1808.  This book, publicised by Goethe became a reference for German popular culture in the 19th century.

At the second act the morphing uses the chest where Sachs the shoemaker lives and the dresser where Eva and her father live.

Dont you think that Sachs/Finley has a Beethoven/Wagner look in this picture ?  Again the book makes an explicit reference to German popular culture.

In this scene Eva (Julia Kleiter) and Walter consider fleeing together as the  Meistersinger competition seems inacessible.
The big brawl where Beckmesser gets trashed starts as a bunch of dwarfs and pupet-animals come out of book on stage.

more and more people come on stage and the scene degenerates into a giant brawl.
In the third act, we are back in Wagner interior and after the composition lesson, we move to the quintet

ten minutes of pure musical bliss.
The staging of the third act is complex: two giant puppets move the sets around, then during the dancing scene for St John, some dance with man sized puppets.
This profusion of means may be quite spectacular, but does not add much to the work meaning.  The much simpler staging with a two-level gazebo in the glynbourne production is I find more effective.

For Sachs pangermanic monolog, Herheim had a great idea: all lights come off except Sachs whis is lit up.  Simultaneously the sets for his interior roll around him and ultimately closes around him to reconstitute Wagner interior.
Sachs fall backwards behinds other actor and re-emerges in a nightgown as his finishes his diatribe.  The message is clear: this monolog only belongs to Wagner fieverish
mind and is not part of the humanist message of this beautiful work.

A significant difference with the Glyndebourne production is the way Sachs comes across (although it is sung by the same person).  In Glyndebourne production, Sachs is a Faustian character full of doubts and interogation.  With Herheim, Sachs is Wagner and the doubts are very close to madness.

One last picture for the Maestro Philippe Jordan

With the intermission, this was a wonderful musical journey of six hours.  I hope to convince the NewYorkers and the Milanese to buy their tickets for this production.


(poco) Sforzando

#66
Quote from: Spineur on March 08, 2016, 03:11:45 AM
Recension "Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg" Paris Opera / Herheim staging

It is the same Salzburg staging as for the 200th anniversary, with the same sets, the same costumes, and the same choreography for the danced sections.  It will also be the staging used by the Metropolitan Opera in the spring. 

The Met is not getting this Meistersinger until 2019-20. If I decide I cannot wait that long or am expiring of a dread disease, I have the DVD. But next year we get a new Tristan, the good news being that Simon Rattle will conduct. (At this stage, ABL, or Anyone But Levine, will make me happy.)

(I cannot see your images on my browser, BTW. I just get either little boxes, or a link to the NitroFlare site.)
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

(poco) Sforzando

#67
Quote from: Spineur on March 08, 2016, 03:28:16 AM
OK, I'll try to fix this.  Its a pain to add images on this site...

I think so long as they are genuine images with a JPG, BMP, PNG, or that sort of extension, they should work fine. But they have to exist on the Internet as image files with their own URL. How's this for you?



ETA: I still cannot see yours. I can download the images from NitroFlare, but they don't show up here on GMG. If they're on your PC and not the Internet, you could try using Dropbox and then sharing the file; I have found this works well for files I have created on my local computer.
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

Spineur

#68
OK, its fixed.  I find adding picture through internet link a pain...
Hopefully these pictures are worth it.  I took most of them with a silent camera with double stabilization.  Its actually kind of hard and a pain to do even with a good seat.  I am not sure I will repeat the experience although after the show its kind of nice to have.

To complement the recension,  this interview of Philippe Jordan discusses the musical writing of the work and puts it in perspective of the other Wagner operas.  Its in french but there are english subtitle (and musical excerpts)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Di438i7S4A4

(poco) Sforzando

Since we already have a Meistersinger thread going, I thought I'd just collect all the recent posts about this opera to have them in one tidy place.

Start from amw, listening to the Jochum recording:
I know and really like the prelude. Don't know anything else. Hopefully I'll survive DFD and Domingo in this.

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ritter replies:
IMHO Fi-Di is a rather unusual (too artistocratic?) Hans Sachs, but I do think his portarayel is ultimately rather succesful. Domingo is, well, Domingo  ;), and if you get used to his poor German pronunciation (he improved signifcatly in this area later in his career), the singing as such is rather beautiful. For me, the best performance in this recroding is Horst Laubenthal's superb David.

I do not know if I understand you correctly, amw. You do not know anything apart from the prelude from this particular performance, or from Meistersinger as a work? If it's the latter, you're in for a wonderful voyage of musical discovery. This opera is something very special, and the last hour or so (from the quintet up to the end of Act III) is sublime!  :)

Paderewski's famous dictum that Meistersinger is "'the greatest work of genius ever achieved by any artist in any field of human endeavour" might be exaggerated (but only slightly so  ;D )

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amw:
I listened to the whole thing. Singers were ok, though I barely even noticed DFD (and Domingo was, yeah, could've done without)—he has a major role apparently, I'm not sure whether his music wasn't notable enough or he just didn't characterise it well enough. The other male singers who weren't DFD and Domingo were fine. Ladies I didn't care for much but they were also not terrible, like, I've heard way worse in Wagner.

I do not know the opera at all. The music was mostly nice, rising to good in a few parts. Prelude is still the best part, but the finales of the first two acts and the quintet are musical highlights for sure and there are probably others I wasn't paying enough attention to. But for the most part, it's nice. It's very civilised and straightforward and everything goes according to plan and it feels like half of it was written on autopilot. I might like it better on a subsequent listen, maybe once I know what's actually going on. (Highlight: the march motive, which still plays in my head a lot when I come home from work.)

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(poco) Sforzando:
Boulez considered Meistersinger along with Boris Godunov to be the two most moving operas in his experience. Pity he never performed either. I don't know what you mean by "autopilot," as I consider the work uniquely inspired almost all the way through. So I think the opera deserves better than your casual assessment.

======
amw:
Probably does. I am not a Wagner fan.

I will someday relisten properly giving it my full attention. The score did seem to be full of subtleties, and likely does not respond well to casual listening.

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Brian (who evidently saw a version with very slow tempi):
Not surprisingly, it would certainly help to see the opera unfold - my first encounter was a livestream from Glyndebourne, with Gerald Finley as Hans Sachs; thing was approx. 8523 hours long, but I never once thought to turn my back or turn it off. Seeing the opera and following the story, you do need to contend with the cringe-y ending sermon about Germanness and nationalistic purity, but I have very positive memories of the rest. That was 5 years ago this summer. Probably time to revisit. It looks like there are two Blu-Rays available: Bayreuth (Sebastian Weigle, cond. / Katharina Wagner, dir., costume on cover photo appears to be emulating the early 1970s), and the very same Glyndebourne performance I saw (Vladimir Jurowski, cond. / David McVicar, dir., set in 1800s).

I wonder why Boulez chose those two operas, and in particular why he used the word "moving".

I'll agree with amw that the prelude is still my favorite part. Maybe because of familiarity, or maybe cuz it's great  0:)

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ritter responds to (poco) Sfz:
Yep, that "autopilot" comment struck me as well. IMHO opinion, you may find things to criticise in Meistersinger (too long, some bombast here or there, etc.), but lack of inspriration is certainly not one of them (in my book, at least). I suppose listening to it without paying close attention to the text, the orchestration and, most particularly,  the polyphony and counterpoint (the work is an almost non-stop "polyphonic feast", isn't it?) can lead to quick conlcusions.

As for Boulez, after the last run of the "centennial Ring" (in 1980) he did say publicly he would like to be invited back to Bayreuth precisely for Meistersinger. Unfortunatley, that never happened, and instead he was asked to do Parsifal again in 2004 (34 years after his last performance of that opera on the Green Hill).

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Andy D.:
From a purely dynamic level Meistersinger is like a miracle; the parts that might be challenging and pretty much require willed immersion always lead to a huge payoff.  At least in my experience.

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(poco) Sforzando (in a characteristically long and pedantic post) responds to Brian:
The Katharina Wagner is an eccentric, controversial, and IMO Eurotrashy version from Bayreuth of an opera that deserves and receives a more traditional staging such as that provided by Glyndebourne or the Met (where Levine offers pretty solid conducting rather than the droopiness of his Ring cycles).

As for the ending of Act Three, I agree that this is where the opera most falters. For one thing, Walther's Prize Song is much more conventional and stodgy than his trial song at the end of Act One, and we're forced to listen to the darned thing some 3-4 times. But more important, Wagner's treatment of Beckmesser is decidedly unfunny, subjecting the Town Clerk to a degree of public humiliation uncalled for by the action, in that it is an extreme punishment for someone whose only real fault is being an old man lacking musical talent who is hopelessly in love with a young girl. Some would deny that anti-Semitism plays any role here, and no doubt Beckmesser is not literally depicted as a Jew. But his serenades, and the heavy-handed parody of the Prize Song he offers in the final scene, have been associated with synagogue music. And when you add all the elements - especially the need to get rid of the town's most undesirable citizen before the community achieves its final sugary apotheosis, and the warning against non-German art - I find it difficult to deny a covert message that would have appealed to the Nazis. Wolfgang Wagner in his staging brought Beckmesser back at the end to return to the happy community, but this bit of stage business is distinctly absent in the original text.

For a rough comparison, I like to compare the ending of Shakespeare's Twelfth Night and the treatment of Malvolio. Malvolio is a self-important, puritanical ass who is tormented by Sir Toby and his friends, and by the end of the play he runs off in impotent anger. But Olivia insists that the others make peace with Malvolio, and thus the blow is softened. You do not get this at the end of Meistersinger, which is why the ending always leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

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And then (poco) Sfz to ritter:
Aye. One of my favorite sequences in the opera (and one that in the older days was often cut at the Met in NY) is David's recitation in Act One of the various Meistersinger "tones." There are a couple of dozen, and each is musically characterized in a highly detailed and individual way.

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Sergeant Rock:
All this talk of Meistersinger inspires, not a listening to the whole (way too late in the evening for that) but a listen to my favorite Act I prelude: Szell and the miraculous Cleveland (first heard in 1967 and not bettered since).

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Brian:
Know what? I think I'll join you. Listening to the same performance now.

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AndyD.:
The Szell and (older) Solti are my favorite renditions of that prelude. I also love the one that opens the Stein/Weigl dvd (really like that whole performance in fact).

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ritter:
The more the merrier... ;)

Richard Wagner: Prelude to Act I of Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg - The Cleveland Orchestra, George Szell (cond.)

From the big Korean box:

First listen ever (for me) to this performance IIRC...

EDIT:

The prelude to Act I won't suffice (an uncomfortable feeling of coitus interruptus  ;)), so now I continue with the end of the opera (startiing at "Die selige Morgentraum-Deutweise", just before the quintet) from this classic performance (Keilberth).


=====
And now while we're all in various stages of Wagnerian ecstasy, I'll post this much and continue copying in some further discussion below.



"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

(poco) Sforzando

Continuing:

Jeffrey Smith:
I once heard a story that some Munich opera patron stood in the foyer of the opera house the night of the first performance deriding Wagner's contrapuntal abilities to his companions while the prelude was playing.

Meistersinger has been my favorite opera since I first heard any of it.  Beckmesser's music does not remind me of any synagogue music I have heard, and I have been synagogue going all my life. But given Wagner 's anti-Semitic writings, it probably is not much of a stretch to view the libretto in that light. But we should remember that Beckmesser is the defender of fuddy duddy tradition and an archconservative, supposedly modelled on Eduard Hanslick.

I agree that the last part, from the Quintet on, is among the greatest music written.  And don't forget the riot which comes at the end of Act II--a fugue as complex and masterful as any written by Bach.

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(poco) Sforzando replies to JS:

http://tinyurl.com/h98kf77
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/1993/06/10/wagners-anti-semitism/

The claim that Beckmesser's music recalls synagogue chant, whether true or not, has been made by the scholar Barry Millington, and the links above should summarize the main points of the controversy. Millington theorizes that "anti-semitism is woven into the ideological fabric of Die Meistersinger, and that the representation of Beckmesser incorporates unmistakable anti-semitic characteristics." As for Wagner's contrapuntal mastery in the Act II fugue, I think a case can be made that Wagner's abilities are comparatively clumsy in that regard, though the fugue certainly makes a fine effect and is dramatically a stroke of genius.

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ritter:
Very interesting, poco, many thanks! I must confess I haven't read Barry Millington's books (but see that his The Sorcerer of Bayreuth has had some success, and has even been translated into Spanish). Now, Charles Rosen (a pianist and scholar I hugely admire) does make some eloquent points in his counter-reply to Mr. Millington. I tend to believe that only antisemitic aspect in Meistersinger is the complete avoidance of "the Jewish question"; historically (not that Wagner was a historian, of course), from what I've read there was no significant Jewish community in Nuremberg during Hans Sach's lifetime (they were driven away in the late 15th century). The Hanslick angle is of course much more plausible (the character was to be called "Hanslich" in an early draft of the libretto). Then someone might argue that Hanslick was partly Jewish (form his matrenal family), and we're back to square one ::).  But  then we also have those saying that Mime is a caricature of a Jew, Klingsor as well, etc., etc.

There is no doubt that Wagner's socio-political Weltananschauung had some very, very nasty aspects, but the (recurring) efforts over the years by some scholars  to find reflections of these ideas in his works for the stage are usually based IMHO on "purely speculative evidence" (to use the phrase that appears in the link you kindly provided, poco) , and tend to simply display their authors' agenda.

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(poco) Sforzando:
Millington doesn't claim, nor would I, that Beckmesser is literally Jewish. But there are overtones in that final scene that I find disquieting: the public humiliation and expulsion of a member of the society who is considered undesirable, the hymn to the holy German art, the final tableau of a gloriously unified community that can only be achieved once the undesirable member is expunged. The vindictiveness with which Beckmesser is depicted simply strains belief: if he were so musically inept, would he have been accepted as a member of the Masters' guild? in a hierarchical culture such as Nuremberg where the Masters are its most honored citizens, is it credible that the whole town including its lowest-ranking members would openly ridicule him at the opera's end? I don't see any "agenda" there, simply a recitation of the facts.

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ritter:
Fair enough, but what you are pointing out seems to be more a possible dramatic flaw in the work than anything else. But this is a work of fiction, one that at moments relies on exaggeration, and requires the inevitable suspension of disbelief from the audience. You recite the facts, but none of those facts point (even remotely, IMHO) to anything that can be viewed as antismeitism (in this, or any other of Wagner's works for the stage). Now it's me who speculates, but again the Hanslick angle is much more plausible in view of the facts that you mention, and (even if it may have been petty on the composer's part) Meistersinger is partly a way of getting even with that critic. Of course, it's much more than that.

And concerning Sach's final monologue, I would urge everyone to really read the words he says (and, as importantly, to whom he addresses them--Walter von Stolzing). Of course there is a nationalistic streak, but he only praises "German holy art, not an enlarged Reich or anything like that. Rather tame, given the year this was written...

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Spineur on the anti-Semitism issue:
Here I agree.  The whole attitude of Beckmesser in the first act, is the defense of tradition, rejecting any form of innovation in the lyric approach "of the new contener".  He represents the musical establishment Wagner has always fought.  I do not think there is anything more, and nothing in him represent judaism.
True, Wagner turns him in ridicule to the point of humiliation: what would you expect ?  It is a comedy "a l'allemande".  Everything is explicit and first degree.  In Moliere plays characters are also turned into ridicule.  But humour helps taming the situations.

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Spineur on the final monologue:
No Ritter.  It is much worse than that.  It really is a pangermanic tirade.  This is why in Herheim staging, Sachs disappears to become Wagner in nightgown and nightcap to erruct this last tirade that belongs to his fieverish mind.
This is a great stagging idea: it remove the tirade content from the wholly humanistic message of this masterpiece.

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(poco):

I thought I made clear that I wasn't literally finding anti-Semitism in the work (unlike Millington, though I have an anthology of Meistersinger criticism somewhere on my shelves and should read his essay in full, as I expect his piece to be in it). I was pointing instead to a pattern of dramatic construction where the "villain" is punished far beyond his deserts, and which is consistent with a mindset that suggests expunging the undesirable element is necessary to achieving a conflict-free, harmonious society. That's not anti-Semitism per se, but it's a view of the world that could well appeal to an anti-Semite, and Meistersinger was Hitler's favorite opera. Spineur tells us that "humor tames the situation," but my problem is that I don't find the treatment of Beckmesser remotely funny, and there is a loss of dramatic balance. If not, why did Wolfgang Wagner (see the Horst Stein-Bernd Weikl DVD) feel the need to go outside the text and have Sachs bring back Beckmesser into the company at the end? Again, I suggest Shakespeare's treatment of Malvolio as a more balanced, humane way of dealing with a similar situation.

As for the monologue, this is a section Wagner himself had doubts about including, and as the words suggest, it is much more than a paean to German art. Read the words - exactly - and to whom they are addressed: "Drum sag' ich euch" is a plural form being sung to the entire community, not just the tenor. This tirade, as Spineur puts it, is not just about art but represents a thoroughly gratuitous fear of the German state being overrun by foreign powers.

Any rate, fun talking with you guys about this.

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ritter:
Thanks for your thoughtful reply, poco! I think that our respective views are clear, and as you say, it's fun to talk about this.  :)

Far from me to want to have the last word, but please note that Sachs adresses Walther in the second person plural ("euch") throughout the opera (actually, most character's talk to each other that way, an archaic usage); thus, for me at least it is clear (even more given the context) to whom the closing tirade is adressed. And the crucial (redeeming?)  line--again, for me--of the whole monologue is "lebt's nicht in deutscher Meister Ehr'".

Yep, I know Wolfgang Wagner's second production on DVD. A nice touch bringing Beckmesser back into the fold, but one that he did not repeat IIRC in his third (and I believe better) production--also available on DVD conducted by Barenboim.

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(poco), concisely for once:
You're right of course, and I should have been more precise. But the Ihr/Euch form is used for plurals as well, and I take it to apply to the entire community at this point. At least since the whole chorus takes up "Ehrt eure deutschen Meister" at the final tableau, I can't quite see this as merely a private conversation between Sachs and Walther!

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karlhenning:
To risk an unsupported assertion: There are no private conversations in a Wagner opera  8)

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Jo498 replies to (poco):
I agree; the final oration is clearly addressed to everybody at the "Festwiese". But I do not think the interpretation is quite as straightforward. The fear that the German/Holy Roman Empire would fall apart was not at all unfounded. It actually was a fairly weak entity in Sachs' time and basically fell apart because of the reformation/counter-reformation and what happened only about 50 years after the historical Sachs' death with the 30 years war was precisely the devastation of central Germany with the participation of foreign powers (France and Sweden). Although the Empire kept existing on paper until 1806.

It could probably also be argued that the establishment of German as a language for literature and philosophy was also delayed for about a 100 years or more because of the turmoil of the 17th century and the French cultural dominance until the mid/late 18th century. (The earliest German "classical" author is Lessing 1729-81 although there are of course some in the 17th cent., the 250 year gap between Luther and Lessing is remarkable.)

And in Wagner's time the restoration was by no means achieved (Meistersinger Premiere 1868, establishment of the Prussian-led German Empire 1871, the Austrian Empire was not quite "wälsch" but it was multi-ethnic). So the idea that the cultural tradition and identity would form the basis of a national identity because there was no political unity (as e.g. in France, the mortal enemy from Napoleon until 1918) and that this cultural identity would eventually lead to such a political unity was current throughout the 19th century (in its more precise from that idea was probably born in the wars against Napoleon).

It's probably more complex still because Wagner had started out more like an anarchist than a nationalist, so how he conceived the role of "Holy German Art" and its relation to a German Empire is not so obvious. Maybe he cared more about the supremacy of the Art than about any stable Reich

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(poco) to Jo:
Where do you stand on the question of anti-Semitism (real or implied) in the opera?

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Jo:
Although I think that the issue is complicated, that last oration is probably the most nationalistic bit in any Wagner opera and it has clearly been perceived as such both by the Nazis and by critics.

I do not really have any formed opinion wrt the antisemitism. But I have to admit that I do not know the opera very well (I know the ouverture best, have listened to the whole thing a few times on disc but never seen it on stage and right now do not have Beckmesser's music "in my head"). It has also been claimed that Mime and Alberich (maybe also Klingsor and of course both Kundry and the Hollaender are variants of the "Wandering Jew" but as operatic figures they don't really fit antisemitic clichées) were antisemitic caricatures. I don't know (I don't know any synagogal music). The best case could probably made for Mime's whining as a caricature of a sly and supplicant Jewish character (cf. Shmuyle in Pictures of an exhibition).

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(poco):
I myself have seen it 4-5 times at the Metropolitan Opera over the years in two very good traditionalist productions, and they are bringing the Herheim in a year or two to replace their current one. Hopefully someone other than James Levine will conduct; though this is one of his better operas, time for some new blood.



"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

ritter

#71
First of all, many thanks to (poco) sforzando for bringing over all those posts form the WAYLTN thread to this one  :) :) :). It must have been a real sforzo!!!

Now, I take the liberty to transcribe Walther's last lines and the beginning of Sach's final monologue (in the English translation found on www.rwagner.net):

WALTHER
Not Master! No!
(He looks tenderly at Eva)
I will be happy without Masterhood.

(All look disconcertedly towards Sachs)

SACHS
(going towards Walther and grasping
him meaningfully by the hand)

Scorn not the Masters, I bid you,
and honour their art!
What speaks high in their praise
fell richly in your favour.
Not to your ancestors, however worthy,
not to your coat-of-arms, spear, or sword...


I have highlighted one of the stage directions, at this is what leads me to insist that it's Walther this tirade is adressed to. Obviously, in a very public manner, but all that talk about lineage and coats of arms only applies to him (a nobleman, ein Juncker), and not to the crowd (made up 100% of townspeople and Bürger). Obviously, as the monolgue advances, it is clear that the target of Sach's words is widened the crowd and the audience. But here I find a twist that could reflect some of Wagner's earlier anarchist leanings: it could be that Wagner (through Sachs) is putting the responsibility of "real" and "big" politics (kingdoms that decay, foreign rule and all that) on the nobility (the class Walther comes from), while the good working people (from which the masters emerge, and who embrace Walther despite his origins) represent the true and the good, and are the repositories of "holy Art" (German, of course). So yes, this is a statement about the timelessness and superiority of art (yes, German, but Nuremberg is hardly in Andalusia or Finland, is it?  :D ). Then again, this can be interpreted as having a sinister streak, and being a percursor (or added fuel) to the völkisch movement (and we all know how strong that was in Cosima's Bayreuth). But I think this would be an ex-post interpretation (whteher a plausible one or not can be argued). In any case, I agree with Jo498 very eloquent exposition of the socio-historical background of this final monologue.  :)

poco, you mentioned Wolfgang Wagner's second Bayreuth staging of the piece (the one on DVD conducted by Horst Stein), with the famous "reconciliation" of the community with Beckmesser (thanks to Sachs). I expressed my preference for his third (the first one was never fimed), also on DVD. To a great degree, this is because in this last approach to he work, Wolfgang managed to turn Nuremberg into a microcosm, making it clear that this fasciniating work talks about universal themes, not something specifically German. That he managed to do this without taking the action away from the original time and place is quite a feat, IMHO. This can be seen rather clearly in the beautiful set of the finale:



Cheers,


(poco) Sforzando

Quote from: ritter on July 13, 2016, 12:13:18 PM
First of all, many thanks to (poco) sforzando for bringing over all those posts form the WAYLTN thread to this one  :) :) :). It must have been a real sforzo!!!

Now, I take the liberty to transcribe Walther's last lines and the beginning of Sach's final monologue (in the English translation found on www.rwagner.net):

WALTHER
Not Master! No!
(He looks tenderly at Eva)
I will be happy without Masterhood.

(All look disconcertedly towards Sachs)

SACHS
(going towards Walther and grasping
him meaningfully by the hand)

Scorn not the Masters, I bid you,
and honour their art!
What speaks high in their praise
fell richly in your favour.
Not to your ancestors, however worthy,
not to your coat-of-arms, spear, or sword...


I have highlighted one of the stage directions, at this is what leads me to insist that it's Walther this tirade is adressed to. Obviously, in a very public manner, but all that talk about lineage and coats of arms only applies to him (a nobleman, ein Juncker), and not to the crowd (made up 100% of townspeople and Bürger). Obviously, as the monolgue advances, it is clear that the target of Sach's words is widened the crowd and the audience. But here I find a twist that could reflect some of Wagner's earlier anarchist leanings: it could be that Wagner (through Sachs) is putting the responsibility of "real" and "big" politics (kingdoms that decay, foreign rule and all that) on the nobility (the class Walther comes from), while the good working people (from which the masters emerge, and who embrace Walther despite his origins) represent the true and the good, and are the repositories of "holy Art" (German, of course). So yes, this is a statement about the timelessness and superiority of art (yes, German, but Nuremberg is hardly in Andalusia or Finland, is it?  :D ). Then again, this can be interpreted as having a sinister streak, and being a percursor (or added fuel) to the völkisch movement (and we all know how strong that was in Cosima's Bayreuth). But I think this would be an ex-post interpretation (whteher a plausible one or not can be argued). In any case, I agree with Jo498 very eloquent exposition of the socio-historical background of this final monologue.  :)

poco, you mentioned Wolfgang Wagner's second Bayreuth staging of the piece (the one on DVD conducted by Horst Stein), with the famous "reconciliation" of the community with Beckmesser (thanks to Sachs). I expressed my preference for his third (the first one was never fimed), also on DVD. To a great degree, this is because in this last approach to he work, Wolfgang managed to turn Nuremberg into a microcosm, making it clear that this fasciniating work talks about universal themes, not something specifically German. That he managed to do this without taking the action away from the original time and place is quite a feat, IMHO. This can be seen rather clearly in the beautiful set of the finale:
Cheers,

I understand the stage direction. I'd have to check through various DVDs to see how the scene is handled, but I'm inclined to think that from Hab acht! forward, the address is made more generally to the community.

Where do I find the DVD with Wolfgang's third staging?
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

Jo498

#73
you are right, I had not looked up the complete context. The passage in a sense also takes up the dialectics from the first scene/act when Walther is taught the rules. A possible ending for Walther could have been just to take the girl and leave the contest, the masters and Nuremberg behind. But this would be scorning the masters and their (German) Art. Sachs cannot allow this, the whole point of teaching Walther the proper balance between freedom and rule following and the rejuvenation of the Art by the creative outsider would have been lost if he scorned the masters and their Art in such a fashion. So this closes an important topic of the opera.

The wider context is, as I said, that the cultural identity will prevail even if the political structures falter. Or in the 19th century it was the other way round: The cultural identity was supposed to give stability and clear the ground for a national unity. Of course they believed also that their art was superior to "wälscher Tand". This would not be surprising in any case but it was also kind of necessary to believe in superiority in that field to stress its importance for the cultural identity, after all, if your national art sucks why not adopt a superior foreign one - this had been fairly common in the 18th century: Frederick II. spoke French better than German and entertained Voltaire and other French intellectuals at his court in Potsdam.

Of course such ideas were later also used to argue that because German culture was superior the nation should also be politically dominant and not take second place to France or Britain. That's why after 1871 they were so eager to get a few colonies. They resented being late in global history. But while that kind of resentment proved disastrous in the 20th century it was actually quite understandable for most of the 19th.
Recall also that many, especially artists and intellectuals were frustrated by the restauration of the monarchies after Napoleon had finally been beaten and then again by the failed revolution of 1848. Their culture, both the relatively recent (like Goethe and Schiller), the contemporary Romantics, but also the past, like the medieval Minnesaenger (all those guys at the Wartburg contest in Tannhaeuser) and the Meistersinger of the early modern era, basically the first poets writing in (early modern) German, was their only straw, the main thing they could be proud of.
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

ritter

Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on July 13, 2016, 01:04:23 PM
Where do I find the DVD with Wolfgang's third staging?
It's this one:

[asin]B0012K53TK[/asin]
I suppose (hope  ::)) it can be found cheaper out there...

ritter

#75
Cross-posted from the "What Opera Are You Listening..." thread, as this might be more appropriate here.

On the year's new production of Die Meistersinger in Bayreuth, staged by Barrie Kosky and conducted by Philippe Jordan:
Quote from: ritter on July 27, 2017, 01:30:26 AM
In general, the reviews I've read in the German and Spanish press are favourable. I am of those who think that Wagner's rabid antisemtism is not reflected in the plots, characters or music of his dramatic works, but rather that the issue is completely ignored by him (in that context, obviously). Still, I am open to interpretations that take a different angle, and Barrie Kosky apparently has made a very eloquent and intelligent use of this notion in his work, and has garnered a resounding success. I will apply (again  ::)) for tickets next year, to see if I get lucky.  ;)

Some stills from the staging:


Act 1 (set in Villa Wahnfried - a device already used by Sttefan herheim in his brilliant Parsifal staging).


The Festwiese in Act 3 is the hall in which the Nuremberg trials were held after WW2.


Beckmesser turned into a caricature of the jew as supposedly seen by Wagner.

The review by Shirley Apthorp for the Financial Times.

And an article from Le Figaro (in French)

EDIT: A glowing review by Martin Kettle in The Guardian.

Karl Henning

Last night at the Hatch Shell on the Charles River Esplanade, I heard one of our area community orchestras play some Wagner, a suite condensing the entire opera (Die Meistersinger).
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Karl Henning

We might almost say, in hindsight, it was just the experience I have been waiting for – although I have what is likely a very fine recording of the full opera, I haven't yet sat down to listen to it . . . and an opportunity to hear the music live is almost invariably a plus, for me.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

kishnevi

#78
I suppose that an arranger might feel that it was musically too steep (at least in terms of orchestral size) for a community orchestra--I think there are close to a dozen vocal lines involved, with the chorus split ten ways to Sunday, so to speak,  on top of the orchestra itself--but one wishes they could have included the riot which ends Act II, and which is, ironically (since it is portraying an utterly chaotic scene onstage), a gigantic fugue that Johann Sebastian could probably not have bettered.

http://imslp.nl/imglnks/usimg/a/a5/IMSLP63566-PMLP16799-Wagner_-_Die_Meistersinger_-_Act_II.pdf

(Once you have suffered through the download process, you can go directly to Scene 7.)

I've never found the opera to be antiSemitic per se,  I think Wagner meant to draw on pan Germanic nationalism, one of whose strains was unfortunately antiSemitism.  I know Beckmesser's tune is alleged to be a satire of synagogue music, but it doesn't remind me of anything I've ever heard in a synagogue.

Karl Henning

Interesting, Jeffrey, thanks.  I don't think that angle has been the 'interference' at all . . . I've mostly been positively inclined to the work, as we played a band transcription, not of the Prelude per se, but of a medley of the best-known tunes which might serve as a "poor man's Overture," back in my school days.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot