Author Topic: Less Popular and/or Talented(?) Composers  (Read 8213 times)

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Offline Josquin des Prez

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Re: Less Popular and/or Talented(?) Composers
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2008, 04:42:35 AM »
And how do you define "less popular or talented composers" anyway?  What criteria do you use? 

I'm more then capable of discerning genius on my own without the need for a special criteria.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2008, 05:05:15 AM by Josquin des Prez »

Hector

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Re: Less Popular and/or Talented(?) Composers
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2008, 05:05:41 AM »
Curiosity and historical value for the most part. Most of them don't ever survive more then a few listens, though every now and then you get the occasional forgotten gem. It's rare, but it happens.

What irritates me is people stuck into some feel-good, "let's promote the little guy" mentality which is inane and irritating for it's lack of respect towards artistic truth. Very, very few unknown composers deserve to be "better known" but according to those misfits there isn't a single third rate hack out there who doesn't deserve it's own niche. Come on, let's get real folks.

Pompous, elitist tosh.

Who the hell are you to judge "artistic truth"?

Hasn't it occurred to your tiny mind that these "little guys" may have been seeking "artistic truth" whatever that is?

As a "misfit" I seek out the lesser known, recognise their inadequacies but have the guts to admit that I enjoy a lot of them.

That does not change my opinion of the "greats" and I think that I am "getting real."

Offline Josquin des Prez

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Re: Less Popular and/or Talented(?) Composers
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2008, 09:45:21 AM »
Who the hell are you to judge "artistic truth"?

One of the few people left in this forsaken culture of ours who hasn't sold their soul and their mind to group-think oblivion. God forbid anybody should use their reason rather then their feelings.

Offline (poco) Sforzando

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Re: Less Popular and/or Talented(?) Composers
« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2008, 11:43:48 AM »
I don't think the self-righteousness of either Hector or Josquin is justified here. The composers who have been generally accepted as great have achieved their renown through a process of cultural endorsement that has included the efforts of numerous performers, listeners, scholars, and other composers. It's not any one individual's choice. Of course mistakes have been made and will continue to be made, with some degree of inflated reputation as well as the opposite, but then again there have also been many major rediscoveries. Yet with all due respect to the merits of some of the secondary figures, on the whole I don't think we have been cheated out of so many masterpieces as to call the accepted canon seriously into question.
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Offline Gabriel

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Re: Less Popular and/or Talented(?) Composers
« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2008, 12:20:50 PM »
What irritates me is people stuck into some feel-good, "let's promote the little guy" mentality which is inane and irritating for it's lack of respect towards artistic truth.

Well, Mendelssohn said something like this in times when Carl Philipp Emanuel was the most acclaimed member of a distinguished musical family. And the "little guy" he presented again to the general audience turned to be one of the greatest composers ever.

And it is not an isolated example in history. Haydn also comes to my mind, and I am sure that among GMGers we can recollect other clear examples.

MN Dave

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Re: Less Popular and/or Talented(?) Composers
« Reply #25 on: May 20, 2008, 12:25:20 PM »
I think we have here more explanations of why people listen to lesser known composers than why they aren't listening to the top 200.

Offline Dancing Divertimentian

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Re: Less Popular and/or Talented(?) Composers
« Reply #26 on: May 20, 2008, 04:48:29 PM »
One of the few people left in this forsaken culture of ours who hasn't sold their soul and their mind to group-think oblivion. God forbid anybody should use their reason rather then their feelings.

I'm not sure what you're driving at but liking a so-called minor composer does absolutely no harm to anyone.

If you're looking for decay in today's culture look to pop culture and greedy oil barons. Far more harm done there than one's enjoyment of lesser known classical figures.

BTW, did you get my PM awhile back, Jos?



Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

Offline Lethevich

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Re: Less Popular and/or Talented(?) Composers
« Reply #27 on: May 20, 2008, 11:05:31 PM »
If you're looking for decay in today's culture look to pop culture and greedy oil barons.

People constantly whinging on the internet instead if doing anything useful can't help either ;)
Peanut butter, flour and sugar do not make cookies. They make FIRE.

Hector

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Re: Less Popular and/or Talented(?) Composers
« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2008, 03:37:20 AM »
I don't think the self-righteousness of either Hector or Josquin is justified here. The composers who have been generally accepted as great have achieved their renown through a process of cultural endorsement that has included the efforts of numerous performers, listeners, scholars, and other composers. It's not any one individual's choice. Of course mistakes have been made and will continue to be made, with some degree of inflated reputation as well as the opposite, but then again there have also been many major rediscoveries. Yet with all due respect to the merits of some of the secondary figures, on the whole I don't think we have been cheated out of so many masterpieces as to call the accepted canon seriously into question.

Well, I'm certainly not calling the accepted canon into question just endorsing those that seek pastures new.

I'd like to know what mistakes you think have been made and in what direction. That would be very interesting!

Offline (poco) Sforzando

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Re: Less Popular and/or Talented(?) Composers
« Reply #29 on: May 21, 2008, 04:09:39 AM »
Well, I'm certainly not calling the accepted canon into question just endorsing those that seek pastures new.

I'd like to know what mistakes you think have been made and in what direction. That would be very interesting!

Sure. Among some of the re-evaluations upwards in the past 50-75 years:
- the first complete performances of Berlioz's Troyens
- increasing acceptance of Schubert's instrumental music
- the worldwide explosion of interest in Mahler and Bruckner
- the revival of Handel's operas, along with more performances of baroque operatic work from composer like Rameau and Lully
- the greater acceptance of Sibelius, who was at one time a totally reviled composer

No doubt others. Now you might say, "these are all canonical works, not less popular ones!" But if you look at performance history, you'll see that in say 1930-40, a lot of this work was far less played than today, and sometimes looked down upon.

More ramifications to this that I want to mention, but no time right now.
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

Hector

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Re: Less Popular and/or Talented(?) Composers
« Reply #30 on: May 21, 2008, 05:37:55 AM »
Sure. Among some of the re-evaluations upwards in the past 50-75 years:
- the first complete performances of Berlioz's Troyens
- increasing acceptance of Schubert's instrumental music
- the worldwide explosion of interest in Mahler and Bruckner
- the revival of Handel's operas, along with more performances of baroque operatic work from composer like Rameau and Lully
- the greater acceptance of Sibelius, who was at one time a totally reviled composer

No doubt others. Now you might say, "these are all canonical works, not less popular ones!" But if you look at performance history, you'll see that in say 1930-40, a lot of this work was far less played than today, and sometimes looked down upon.

More ramifications to this that I want to mention, but no time right now.

I did not ask for this which suggests what I suspected in the first place: you have, simply, not read in any detail or misunderstood my posts.

Therefore, I'll ask again: what mistakes do you think have been made, or am I misreading you and you have, indeed, listed the mistakes?

Putting aside the assertion that Schubert's instrumental music wasn't accepted (on who's authority is this based?) I thought that it was, merely, not regularly performed in public until Schnabel came along! However,...

Offline (poco) Sforzando

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Re: Less Popular and/or Talented(?) Composers
« Reply #31 on: May 21, 2008, 05:49:15 AM »
I did not ask for this which suggests what I suspected in the first place: you have, simply, not read in any detail or misunderstood my posts.

Therefore, I'll ask again: what mistakes do you think have been made, or am I misreading you and you have, indeed, listed the mistakes?

Putting aside the assertion that Schubert's instrumental music wasn't accepted (on who's authority is this based?) I thought that it was, merely, not regularly performed in public until Schnabel came along! However,...

I have listed some instances where music that was formerly underestimated is now quite prominent. I don't propose to provide a complete catalog, if such a thing were possible. And I think I responded appropriately to your post.
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

Hector

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Re: Less Popular and/or Talented(?) Composers
« Reply #32 on: May 22, 2008, 05:22:38 AM »
I have listed some instances where music that was formerly underestimated is now quite prominent. I don't propose to provide a complete catalog, if such a thing were possible. And I think I responded appropriately to your post.

No you are not but merely passing on received opinion.

We can all do that. A pointless exercise.


Offline (poco) Sforzando

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Re: Less Popular and/or Talented(?) Composers
« Reply #33 on: May 22, 2008, 06:40:43 AM »
No you are not but merely passing on received opinion.

We can all do that. A pointless exercise.



Then be clear about what you mean. I'm trying to respond to you in a reasonable manner, but if you want to call it "a pointless exercise," I can't be bothered.
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

Offline Ten thumbs

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Re: Less Popular and/or Talented(?) Composers
« Reply #34 on: May 22, 2008, 01:01:52 PM »
Fifty years ago both Alkan and Scriabin were disregarded, or at best denigrated.
How many people have heard of Medtner today?
Thank goodness there is so much recorded music today because there are too few concerts to allow all worth while music to be heard in live performance.
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Offline Christo

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Re: Less Popular and/or Talented(?) Composers
« Reply #35 on: May 22, 2008, 10:11:46 PM »
I'm more then capable of discerning genius on my own without the need for a special criteria.

Statements like this are, generally speaking, a strong indication of an absence of genius with the pretender  :)
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Offline Dancing Divertimentian

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Re: Less Popular and/or Talented(?) Composers
« Reply #36 on: May 23, 2008, 06:01:40 PM »
People constantly whinging on the internet instead if doing anything useful can't help either ;)

Hear, hear!



Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach