Karajan in Beethoven's Symphony 5 - he used 8 horns ?!!

[Marcel]

Now, I am quit angry !
Let's see this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhcR1ZS2hVo, at 2.05 I can see 8 horns in Beethoven's 5th symphony (!!!) despite the original instrumentation goes for 2. But there are also 4 trumpets (!!) and rather big section of strings. Why he used so large orchestra?

[prémont]

Why he used so large orchestra?

Megalomania.

[MichaelRabin]

In Mozart, the late Herbie used to quote a letter from WA Mozart to his father - that the 40 violins in the Paris orchestra sounds wonderful - as reason to play Mozart symphonies with an enlarged Berlin PO.

[Monsieur Croche]

Megalomania.

Did he use a large orchestra for Wagner also? Now that would make his interpretation sound idiomatic.

[david johnson]

Now, I am quit angry !
Let's see this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhcR1ZS2hVo, at 2.05 I can see 8 horns in Beethoven's 5th symphony (!!!) despite the original instrumentation goes for 2. But there are also 4 trumpets (!!) and rather big section of strings. Why he used so large orchestra?

because it sounds great, i guess.

dj

[Sergeant Rock]

I can see 8 horns in Beethoven's 5th symphony

Cool! Mahlerized and Simonized Beethoven...maybe I should invest in Karajan's Beethoven.

Sarge

[prémont]

I can see 8 horns in Beethoven's 5th symphony (!!!) despite the original instrumentation goes for 2.

"Cornocopia"

[Holden]

Well, you've got to admit that it's pretty effective as evidenced by the opening bars of the 4th movement in the HvK recordings and it's all so clear as well. Those opening bars are one of the most stirring things I've heard in classical music. Also, as an aside, it doesn't necessarily mean that he used all 8 horns together every time horns were required in the score. Anyway, good on him I say!

[M forever]

It was quite customary in the 18th and early 19th century to double the winds if a larger string section was available, for instance for concerts in larger venues. Beethoven's 4th, 7th, 8th, and 9th symphonies were premiered with doubled wind sections which means there were actually 8 horns for the premiere of the 9th since it has 4 parts rather than the typical 2 of all the other symphonies (except for the Eroica which has 3 horn parts).
Later, when larger wind sections were explicitly scored and string sections became bigger, that was not so usual anymore, which changed the balance between winds and strings in the performance of "classical" orchestral music at the expense of the winds. Mahler also used to double the winds for performances of Beethoven symphonies (along with tinkering with the orchestration as such...).
When the BP played Beethoven under Karajan, the winds were always doubled, too, but normally, there would only be 4 horns (except for in the 9th where the doubling resulted in 8, and the Eroica where they played with 6) and typically 4 of each woodwind instrument. I do not think they actually played with all 8 horns on the soundtrack of that film. I think they just put them there so it would look more "impressive". The films were typically made with pre-recorded playback anyway.
The doubling would only occur in louder passages, of course. In solo and lightly scored passages, they didn't double. In crescendi, they would sometimes come in one after another to build the volume slowly.
So, since they typically played in large halls with big string sections, that practice is actually more "historically correct" than putting a small chamber orchestra on the stage of a large concert hall. But that's not "wrong" as such either. Whatever works and is musically convincing and coherent.

[Bonehelm]

So what does the orchestra do in the video  if the film's soundtrack is pre-recorded? They just sit there and pretend theyre playing? Or is the video from another concert?

[Norbeone]

Now, I am quit angry !
Let's see this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhcR1ZS2hVo, at 2.05 I can see 8 horns in Beethoven's 5th symphony (!!!) despite the original instrumentation goes for 2. But there are also 4 trumpets (!!) and rather big section of strings. Why he used so large orchestra?

Why be angry? If you don't like it, then don't listen. Karajan is simply putting into practice a thing called interpretation, and in this partcular case, I think it sounds better with a larger horn section.

[12tone.]

ORCHESTRATION FAIL!!! 

[Marcel]

Why be angry? If you don't like it, then don't listen. Karajan is simply putting into practice a thing called interpretation, and in this particular case, I think it sounds better with a larger horn section.

True, I don't listen it. It was just a coincidence. 

I do not think they actually played with all 8 horns on the soundtrack of that film. I think they just put them there so it would look more "impressive". The films were typically made with pre-recorded playback anyway.

I don't see anything "impressive" on 8 horns in the film. Pure megalomania as Premont wrote.

[Harry]

Now, I am quit angry !
Let's see this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhcR1ZS2hVo, at 2.05 I can see 8 horns in Beethoven's 5th symphony (!!!) despite the original instrumentation goes for 2. But there are also 4 trumpets (!!) and rather big section of strings. Why he used so large orchestra?

Why not?
What counts it how is sounds, and if it has a balance in it.
I am fine with it.
Why the upheaval, as if the man committed a crime!

[Harry]

Cool! Mahlerized and Simonized Beethoven...maybe I should invest in Karajan's Beethoven.

Sarge

Not maybe, yes baby!

[Sergeant Rock]

I do not think they actually played with all 8 horns on the soundtrack of that film. I think they just put them there so it would look more "impressive". The films were typically made with pre-recorded playback anyway.

A singrt lip-synching to pre-recorded music is easy to do...even a small rock band can bring it off and almost look like they are really playing. But one hundred men and women "lip-synching" to a pre-recorded tape? Really? this is how the Karajan film was made? Bizzare.

Sarge

[Bonehelm]

Why not?
What counts is how is sounds, and if it has a balance in it.
I am fine with it.
Why the upheaval, as if the man committed a crime!

I'm 100% with Harry on this one. Karajan knows what he's doing, trust him.

[prémont]

I'm 100% with Harry on this one. Karajan knows what he's doing, trust him.

An artistic choice like this -if all 8 French horns are playing at the same time- is not a matter of knowing, what you are doing, it is a matter of taste, like if you prefer the Grosse Fugue in an orchestrated version.

[FideLeo]

An artistic choice like this -if all 8 French horns are playing at the same time- is not a matter of knowing, what you are doing, it is a matter of taste, like if you prefer the Grosse Fugue in an orchestrated version.

I agree with the above, and it's a taste that I don't share.   In the case of Immerseel's new HIP recordings, which have only 6 first violins and 6 second violins most of the time, using 8 horns instead of 2 would be very strange indeed.

[Symphonien]

I agree with the above, and it's a taste that I don't share.   In the case of Immerseel's new HIP recordings, which have only 6 first violins and 6 second violins most of the time, using 8 horns instead of 2 would be very strange indeed.

But Karajan used a larger string section, so the use of more horns actually creates a proportion between winds and strings that is more historically accurate than playing with less horns and the same larger string section. In Beethoven's day, the sound of the winds would have dominated more over the smaller string section than it does today with a larger string section, so I think Karajan is trying to recreate those same proportions by doubling the number of winds to create a sound more similar to what Beethoven might have intended. Of course, Immerseel's recordings with the smaller string section are probably much more accurate, but I don't see what's so wrong with applying Karajan's idea in the context of a very large orchestra to begin with (the BP).