John Ireland (1879-1962)

Started by tjguitar, May 07, 2007, 01:50:39 PM

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Irons

#80
Quote from: vandermolen on July 04, 2019, 02:58:12 PM
That is indeed a very enjoyable CD with a fine cover image. Ireland lived in a windmill not that far from here (I've seen it during a walk on the Sussex Downs):
Here he is:


One of the few occasions I purchased for the cover alone. In fact the recording is good if rather dry.

You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

I opened the door people rushed through and I was left holding the knob - Bo Diddley.

cilgwyn

Quote from: kyjo on July 04, 2019, 08:56:11 PM
I'll have to give the PC another try. My favorite Ireland work (of those I know) remains A Downland Suite - originally written for brass band but later transcribed for string orchestra. I only know it in the latter incarnation and cannot imagine it any other way. It boasts a heart-rending Elegy and an elegantly nostalgic, catchy Minuet. Continuing in the string orchestra realm, his Concertino Pastorale is another gorgeous, eloquent work.

In the chamber music realm, I really enjoy his early, rather Brahmsian/Dvorakian Sextet for the tonally rich instrumentation of clarinet, horn, and strings - a charming, tuneful work. Also, the later, stormier, rather Baxian Cello Sonata is a fine work with a moving, hymn-like slow movement.
It took quite a few years,from my first listen,to like the Piano Concerto,as much as I do,now! I remember being a little disappointed,too! A review,referring to the composers use of jazzy rhythms,probably didn't help! But all these years later,it's the poetry of the piece and it's un-showy,english reserve that makes the piece. (I actually prefer it to the Gershwin concerto;which is a bit too flashy,for me). I love the quiet opening of the piece. And the first few bars of the second movement are quite magical. When Ireland introduces the popular little tune in the final movement;I was obviously expecting something a little more barnstorming,and showy,in my youth. I suppose a closer comparison would be the concertos of Constant Lambert. But Ireland's Concerto has more depth of feeling,and,imho,better tunes. The melody that unfolds at the beginning of the second movement is quite beautiful. I honestly think,Ireland's Piano Concerto deserves to be popular again. (I'm not holding out much hope,though!) And there's a good reason why there is such a selection of recordings to choose from! If you don't feel too excited at first (but not hating it!) it might be worth trying another recording? I have found that the glories of Ireland can sometimes take time to unfold. His Piano music having a,quietly,deceptive,english reserve.

I will have a listen to the Sextet and Cello Sonata again,a bit later! I have the Lyrita recordings,by the way!

Irons

Quote from: cilgwyn on July 06, 2019, 05:27:53 AM
It took quite a few years,from my first listen,to like the Piano Concerto,as much as I do,now! I remember being a little disappointed,too! A review,referring to the composers use of jazzy rhythms,probably didn't help! But all these years later,it's the poetry of the piece and it's un-showy,english reserve that makes the piece. (I actually prefer it to the Gershwin concerto;which is a bit too flashy,for me). I love the quiet opening of the piece. And the first few bars of the second movement are quite magical. When Ireland introduces the popular little tune in the final movement;I was obviously expecting something a little more barnstorming,and showy,in my youth. I suppose a closer comparison would be the concertos of Constant Lambert. But Ireland's Concerto has more depth of feeling,and,imho,better tunes. The melody that unfolds at the beginning of the second movement is quite beautiful. I honestly think,Ireland's Piano Concerto deserves to be popular again. (I'm not holding out much hope,though!) And there's a good reason why there is such a selection of recordings to choose from! If you don't feel too excited at first (but not hating it!) it might be worth trying another recording? I have found that the glories of Ireland can sometimes take time to unfold. His Piano music having a,quietly,deceptive,english reserve.

I will have a listen to the Sextet and Cello Sonata again,a bit later! I have the Lyrita recordings,by the way!

I think you are right Ireland's PC needs time. It must be said that decent British piano concertos are thin on the ground but this is one.
By the way, hats off to Jeffrey. Thanks to his mention of "Legend" For Piano and Orchestra I listened to the work and enjoyed it very much.
You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

I opened the door people rushed through and I was left holding the knob - Bo Diddley.

Roasted Swan

Quote from: Irons on July 07, 2019, 12:44:12 AM
It must be said that decent British piano concertos are thin on the ground

ooh there's a sweeping statement!  How about (in no particular order & including 'concertante' works):

Bliss
Britten
Vaughan Williams
Walton
Bridge
Berkeley
Hoddinott
Rawsthorne
Delius
Foulds
Stanford
Finzi
Scott
Moeran
Williamson
Reizenstein
Bowen
Bate
Lloyd
Mathias
Leighton
McCabe
Alwyn
Searle
Maconchy



aukhawk


Irons

You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

I opened the door people rushed through and I was left holding the knob - Bo Diddley.

J

Sure, - one could name 20 or 30 more as well.

But Irons' operative word was "decent",  not merely "existing", - and apparently he believes Ireland's entry is among the very few in that respect.

Roasted Swan

Quote from: J on July 07, 2019, 09:35:27 AM
Sure, - one could name 20 or 30 more as well.

But Irons' operative word was "decent",  not merely "existing", - and apparently he believes Ireland's entry is among the very few in that respect.

... and what makes you think that I do not consider ALL the composers/works I listed as "decent" and many of them considerably more than just that modest description!

J

Quote from: Roasted Swan on July 07, 2019, 10:14:41 AM
... and what makes you think that I do not consider ALL the composers/works I listed as "decent" and many of them considerably more than just that modest description!

But does Irons consider them such is the relevant consideration.  He's the one who suggested the rarity of "decent" among the works in question.

Irons

Quote from: J on July 07, 2019, 09:35:27 AM
Sure, - one could name 20 or 30 more as well.

But Irons' operative word was "decent",  not merely "existing", - and apparently he believes Ireland's entry is among the very few in that respect.

That is what I meant and thanks for pointing it out.
You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

I opened the door people rushed through and I was left holding the knob - Bo Diddley.

kyjo

#90
Quote from: Roasted Swan on July 07, 2019, 03:08:19 AM
ooh there's a sweeping statement!  How about (in no particular order & including 'concertante' works):

Bliss
Britten
Vaughan Williams
Walton
Bridge
Berkeley
Hoddinott
Rawsthorne
Delius
Foulds
Stanford
Finzi
Scott
Moeran
Williamson
Reizenstein
Bowen
Bate
Lloyd
Mathias
Leighton
McCabe
Alwyn
Searle
Maconchy

Agreed, there are many fine British PCs. Of those I know, I very much enjoy the ones by Bliss, VW, Walton (Sinfonia Concertante), Bridge (Phantasm), Berkeley (for 2 pianos), Arnold (for 2 pianos 3 hands), Rawsthorne (both), Delius, Foulds (Dynamic Triptych), Stanford (no. 2), Moeran (Rhapsody no. 3), Lloyd (nos. 1 and 4), Leighton (no. 3), Alwyn (no. 2), and Tippett.
"Music is enough for a lifetime, but a lifetime is not enough for music" - Sergei Rachmaninoff

J

As often happens "fine" and "enjoyable" are getting collapsed here (an admittedly small sin).

vandermolen

#92
Quote from: kyjo on July 08, 2019, 08:18:56 PM
Agreed, there are many fine British PCs. Of those I know, I very much enjoy the ones by Bliss, VW, Walton (Sinfonia Concertante), Bridge (Phantasm), Berkeley (for 2 pianos), Arnold (for 2 pianos 3 hands), Rawsthorne (both), Delius, Foulds (Dynamic Triptych), Stanford (no. 2), Moeran (Rhapsody no. 3), Lloyd (nos. 1 and 4), Leighton (no. 3), Alwyn (no. 2), and Tippett.
Very much agree. Others I think highly of are the ones for two pianos by Gordon Jacob (not even on CD) and the short but engaging one by Bliss also for two pianos (three hands). Also the Stanley Bate No.2. Because of the percussive treatment of the piano (I know that is the nature of a piano by the way  :)) I think that the VW two piano version is preferable to the one for single piano. Vronsky/Babin/Boult is one of my favourite VW recordings. You can now get it on CD with the original coupling (Symphony No.Eight) and the fine original cover painting but with the notes all in Japanese  ???
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Irons

The Piano/2 Piano Concerto is my only RVW blind spot. Truth be told I'm not crazy about the Ireland. I ask myself where is it's standing in the whole, as opposed British, repertoire? All is not lost though as yesterday I listened to Alwyn's 2nd PC which I did enjoy much to my surprise. The 1st isn't bad either.
You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

I opened the door people rushed through and I was left holding the knob - Bo Diddley.

cilgwyn

Quote from: vandermolen on July 08, 2019, 09:57:54 PM
Very much agree. Others I think highly of are the ones for two pianos by Gordon Jacob (not even on CD) and the short but engaging one by Bliss also for two pianos (three hands). Also the Stanley Bate No.2. Because of the percussive treatment of the piano (I know that is the nature of a piano by the way  :)) I think that the VW two piano version is preferable to the one for single piano. Vronsky/Babin/Boult is one of my favourite VW recordings. You can now get it on CD with the original coupling (Symphony No.Eight) and the fine original cover painting but with the notes all in Japanese  ???

I think Mathias' Piano Concertos are fantastic,personally! ;D I also,like Bax's Winter Legends and Symphonic Variations. I remember being a bit shocked when I came on this Message Board only to find out that I was in a very small minority,who liked Winter Legends! Actually,probably just me!! :( I nearly wore out the original Lp;and have always associated it with some girl (a blonde) I had a crush on! Sad,because I have an idea she did fancy me! But her Dad was the local hard man,and would have probably put me in A & E! Someone here said it made him think of Woolly Mammoths! I don't think she looked like that! She was slim and blonde! Although I haven't seen her for thirty years!! I find Winter Legends a bit too,ott,these days,to play that often! You can feel Bax's emotions running riot! The sweat pouring off his forehead,by the bucket load,as he composed! ;D It's very heart on sleeve,to put it mildy! ???  A bit,purple,to be ever taken too seriously,I suppose! Margaret Fingerhut is great in those recordings,by the way! I'd love to have been able to watch the recording,as it took place! You don't hear much from her these days,recording wise! She has a website,though! The Symphonic Variations is more tightly structured;and a little less steamy! But when someone,like Hurwitz,says that British Composers are all very stiif upper lip,and can't express their feelings,I can't help thinking of these two works (particularly,Winter Legends).

The Stanley Bate Piano Concerto No 2,is a beauty!

It was the Boult recording of the VW Piano Concerto which 'did it',for me! I quite liked it before I heard it. But it was that recording which made it one of my favourite VW works. The Thomson recording is very good,too. I will listen to it,today! (I've been going through the Thomson cycle).

I suppose there's Fould's Dynamic Triptych?!! Any thoughts on that?! I think it's quite good! Although,I've got to confess,I took my copy to a charity shop!!


cilgwyn

Bridge's Phantasm has,very recently,shot to near the top of my list!

Roasted Swan

Quote from: J on July 07, 2019, 09:35:27 AM
Sure, - one could name 20 or 30 more as well.

But Irons' operative word was "decent",  not merely "existing", - and apparently he believes Ireland's entry is among the very few in that respect.

If we accept "decent" as meaning (via this raft of synonyms - thank God for cut and paste(!): satisfactory, reasonable, fair, acceptable, adequate, sufficient, sufficiently good, good enough, ample, up to scratch, up to the mark, up to standard, up to par, competent, not bad, all right, average, tolerable, passable, suitable; (informal) OK, okay, up to snuff  by my reckoning ALL of the works by the composers I listed are AT LEAST "decent" but each to their own I suppose......

vandermolen

#97
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 09, 2019, 01:55:06 AM
I think Mathias' Piano Concertos are fantastic,personally! ;D I also,like Bax's Winter Legends and Symphonic Variations. I remember being a bit shocked when I came on this Message Board only to find out that I was in a very small minority,who liked Winter Legends! Actually,probably just me!! :( I nearly wore out the original Lp;and have always associated it with some girl (a blonde) I had a crush on! Sad,because I have an idea she did fancy me! But her Dad was the local hard man,and would have probably put me in A & E! Someone here said it made him think of Woolly Mammoths! I don't think she looked like that! She was slim and blonde! Although I haven't seen her for thirty years!! I find Winter Legends a bit too,ott,these days,to play that often! You can feel Bax's emotions running riot! The sweat pouring off his forehead,by the bucket load,as he composed! ;D It's very heart on sleeve,to put it mildy! ???  A bit,purple,to be ever taken too seriously,I suppose! Margaret Fingerhut is great in those recordings,by the way! I'd love to have been able to watch the recording,as it took place! You don't hear much from her these days,recording wise! She has a website,though! The Symphonic Variations is more tightly structured;and a little less steamy! But when someone,like Hurwitz,says that British Composers are all very stiif upper lip,and can't express their feelings,I can't help thinking of these two works (particularly,Winter Legends).

The Stanley Bate Piano Concerto No 2,is a beauty!

It was the Boult recording of the VW Piano Concerto which 'did it',for me! I quite liked it before I heard it. But it was that recording which made it one of my favourite VW works. The Thomson recording is very good,too. I will listen to it,today! (I've been going through the Thomson cycle).

I suppose there's Fould's Dynamic Triptych?!! Any thoughts on that?! I think it's quite good! Although,I've got to confess,I took my copy to a charity shop!!
Interesting. You have encouraged me to have another go with 'Winter Legends' which I always thought rather inferior to 'Symphonic Variations'. It is coupled with the newly released Lyrita release of Bax's Second Symphony conducted by Eugene Goossens.

When I was going out with my wife I played her John Foulds's 'Dynamic Triptych' foolishly thinking that she would be impressed. Her only response was (sarcastically), 'Well, it certainly is very dynamic!'. I think that we probably then went back to listening to the 'Penguin Cafe Orchestra'.

I rate 'Phantasm' and the 'Dynamic Triptych' very highly and tend to enjoy almost everything I have heard by Bridge and Foulds. Must stop now to watch the Great ITV Leadership Debate.  ::)
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

vandermolen

Quote from: Irons on July 07, 2019, 12:44:12 AM
I think you are right Ireland's PC needs time. It must be said that decent British piano concertos are thin on the ground but this is one.
By the way, hats off to Jeffrey. Thanks to his mention of "Legend" For Piano and Orchestra I listened to the work and enjoyed it very much.
Glad you enjoyed it Lol.
:)
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Irons

Quote from: Roasted Swan on July 09, 2019, 07:49:24 AM
If we accept "decent" as meaning (via this raft of synonyms - thank God for cut and paste(!): satisfactory, reasonable, fair, acceptable, adequate, sufficient, sufficiently good, good enough, ample, up to scratch, up to the mark, up to standard, up to par, competent, not bad, all right, average, tolerable, passable, suitable; (informal) OK, okay, up to snuff  by my reckoning ALL of the works by the composers I listed are AT LEAST "decent" but each to their own I suppose......

My Lord, do not discuss a phrase said by me! It was a throwaway line said with little thought. I wish I hadn't said it.  :-X
You must have a very good opinion of yourself to write a symphony - John Ireland.

I opened the door people rushed through and I was left holding the knob - Bo Diddley.