The Most Delicate Opera ?

[Operahaven]

WB Eric!

Thanks Karl.   

I now what you mean by fragile and delicate beauty, but really, doesn't the opera have a spine of steel?

Sergeant,

Hmm... not sure what you mean. It's a predominantly subdued work.

I assume you're referring to an aspect of the libretto ? Something in the Maeterlinck play ?  If that's the case then I can't really comment since I don't and have never cared at all about the dramas or the plots in any opera. I approach all operas as absolute music - instrumental and vocal sounds.... 100%  aurally... I'm not saying that my approach is superior, it's just that I find the music on its own terms so enthralling....  Perhaps one day I will come to appreciate the librettos but it's not likely.

As an aside: isn't the entirety of Act  II  just superb ?...... Those 3 great scenes - A Fountain In The Park, A Room In The Castle, Outside The Grotto - and those 2 really exquisite orchestral interludes.   

[greg]

If that's the case then I can't really comment since I don't and have never cared at all about the dramas or the plots in any opera. I approach all operas as absolute music - instrumental and vocal sounds.... 100%  aurally...

Same thing for me..... cause i don't understand a word of what they're singing (even if it's in English!), plus i don't normally like to follow along with the booklet translation.... i just listen to the music 

[Wendell_E]

Same thing for me..... cause i don't understand a word of what they're singing (even if it's in English!), plus i don't normally like to follow along with the booklet translation.... i just listen to the music 

That's an attitude I can't understand at all.  Though I'll defend your right to such an attitude, blah, blah, blah.   

Pelléas was the first opera that came to my mind when I read the thread title, though my favorite part's the fourth act, where things get all indelicately sexy and violent. 

[BachQ]

i just listen to the music 

Hey, that's 71 dB's mantra! 

[Ephemerid]

Even though Genevieve has a minor role to play, the letter-reading scene I find so sorrowful! 

The interlude right before the final meeting in the forest (one of the few LOUD passages) kills me every time...

[Hector]

I don't think there is one is there?

Those that cited operas that have 'delicate' elements are, probably, nearer the truth.

Take 'La Traviata,' there she is delicately dieing in the last scene and, suddenly, up she pops shouting 'Oh, joia!' before collapsing back dead. Hardly delicate, that!

[Tsaraslondon]

Take 'La Traviata,' there she is delicately dieing in the last scene and, suddenly, up she pops shouting 'Oh, joia!' before collapsing back dead. Hardly delicate, that!

It's interesting to note that it was not until later in his career, that Verdi had the confidence to end his operas quietly. I think I'm correct in stating that Simon Boccanegra is the first of his operas to end quietly with the crowd quietly intoning pace per lui, after Simon has died, though I don't know whether this was part of the original score or a product of the 1881 revision. He also allows Leonora to die quietly in La Forza del Destino. Aida, in many ways the grandest of all grand operas, ends quietly with Amneris praying for peace, and in Otello Otello's last words fade into silence, while the orchestra quietly play that glorious theme from the Act 1 love duet.

[(poco) Sforzando]

I assume you're referring to an aspect of the libretto ? Something in the Maeterlinck play ?  If that's the case then I can't really comment since I don't and have never cared at all about the dramas or the plots in any opera. I approach all operas as absolute music - instrumental and vocal sounds.... 100%  aurally... I'm not saying that my approach is superior, it's just that I find the music on its own terms so enthralling....  Perhaps one day I will come to appreciate the librettos but it's not likely.

According to that somewhat dubious line of reasoning, Debussy might as well have set the Paris telephone book and it wouldn't have mattered to you. Instead of singing "Ne me touchez pas, ne me touchez pas!," Melisande might as well be singing, "Passy vingt-deux-quinze, Passy vingt-deux-quinze!"

Nor does your approach begin to explain why Debussy took so much time finding this particular libretto, why he felt it was so ideally suited to his purposes, and why he could never find another libretto despite numerous attempts at writing other operas. I would think that if you're so ardently devoted to Pelleas as you claim, you'd want to understand how Maeterlinck's aesthetic and world-view is so suited to Debussy's own, and how he attempted to transform Maeterlinck's shadowy, passive characters through his "most delicate" operatic music.

[Sergeant Rock]

Sergeant,

Hmm... not sure what you mean. It's a predominantly subdued work. I assume you're referring to an aspect of the libretto ?

Well, yeah. That's partly what I mean. Opera is an art form combining drama and music. P&M is seething with sexual and violent undercurrents. And sibling rivalry and jealousy. It's a grand soap opera on a scale as passionate, in its own way, as any verismo opera. But I'm talking about the music too. It's far less subdued than many maintain (remember, the "big" moments in Wagner happen rarely too). I do not consider Debussy's style "fragile." Sure, he's delicate when he needs to be (to fit the dramatic situation) but steely, even explosive when needs be. In other words, he's like any great dramatist, fitting the means to the end.

As an aside: isn't the entirety of Act  II  just superb ?......

It is...I love it. But then I love the entire opera. It's one of my favorites...but I have to tell you, without knowing the dramatic situation, it wouldn't be nearly as gripping. Someday you'll have to read the libretto 

Sarge

[Hector]

It's interesting to note that it was not until later in his career, that Verdi had the confidence to end his operas quietly. I think I'm correct in stating that Simon Boccanegra is the first of his operas to end quietly with the crowd quietly intoning pace per lui, after Simon has died, though I don't know whether this was part of the original score or a product of the 1881 revision. He also allows Leonora to die quietly in La Forza del Destino. Aida, in many ways the grandest of all grand operas, ends quietly with Amneris praying for peace, and in Otello Otello's last words fade into silence, while the orchestra quietly play that glorious theme from the Act 1 love duet.

Indeed. I think that 'Simon Boccanegra' may be my favourite Verdi.

I can imagine the Great Man's reaction to the very idea of a 'Delicate opera'!

[Wendell_E]

I think I'm correct in stating that Simon Boccanegra is the first of his operas to end quietly with the crowd quietly intoning pace per lui, after Simon has died, though I don't know whether this was part of the original score or a product of the 1881 revision. He also allows Leonora to die quietly in La Forza del Destino.

Yes, the quiet ending was in the original (1857) Boccanegra.  Originally, Forza had a louder ending, with Alvaro committing suicide.  Thank goodness Verdi changed that in the revision.  He went in the other direction in Don Carlos, changing the originally quiet ending (we hear monks in the chapel intoning the prayer for Charles V again) to a louder one.

[Tsaraslondon]

He went in the other direction in Don Carlos, changing the originally quiet ending (we hear monks in the chapel intoning the prayer for Charles V again) to a louder one.

... which doesn't entirely work. The ending of Don Carlo(s), to my mind, remains an unsolved problem, though, of course, the opera itself contains some of Verdi's greatest music.

[val]

Operahaven

Which is the most musically delicate opera in your opinion ?

Debussy: Pélleas et Mélisande

[Lethevich]

From a broadcast I heard some of, L'Amour de Loin is delicate to the point of catatonia...

[Operahaven]

Hi Sforzando,

According to that somewhat dubious line of reasoning

Why is it dubious ?

Debussy might as well have set the Paris telephone book and it wouldn't have mattered to you.

That is correct.

Instead of singing "Ne me touchez pas, ne me touchez pas!," Melisande might as well be singing, "Passy vingt-deux-quinze, Passy vingt-deux-quinze!"

Yes... And what is wrong with vocalise anyway ?

Nor does your approach begin to explain why Debussy took so much time finding this particular libretto, why he felt it was so ideally suited to his purposes, and why he could never find another libretto despite numerous attempts at writing other operas.

I am familiar with the history and gestation of this opera.

I would think that if you're so ardently devoted to Pelleas as you claim, you'd want to understand how Maeterlinck's aesthetic and world-view is so suited to Debussy's own, and how he attempted to transform Maeterlinck's shadowy, passive characters through his "most delicate" operatic music.

Trust me, I have been fanatically devoted to P&M for years....  But why is an appreciation of Maeterlinck essential to loving Debussy's opera ?

Music critic Harold C. Schonberg once wrote:

"Opera is defined by music. You can strip away the text and visual element and still have an opera. Movies - now there's a medium that is first and foremost a dramatic/visual art form. Opera, not even close. The fact that so many directors take so many liberties with opera simply serves to underscore how relatively unimportant the dramatic and visual element are. What conductor, at least today, would suggest fundamentally reworking the music of Wagner, Mozart, Verdi or Debussy ? Keep in mind that it is the composer - that is, the person who wrote the music - that is the most important and discussed the most. Clearly, music is the most important element.... No opera has ever remained in the repertory because it has a great libretto. It remains because the music is great...."   

*****

I could not agree more with this. 

[Operahaven]

But then I love the entire opera. It's one of my favorites...but I have to tell you, without knowing the dramatic situation, it wouldn't be nearly as gripping. Someday you'll have to read the libretto 

Hi Sergeant,

I love pretty much every note of  P&M  too... But the entirety of Act II represents for me 32 flawless consecutive minutes of special Debussian magic.   



Btw, are you aware that he began working on Act  II  after the rest of the opera was completed ?  In his letters to Chausson he expressed how it was the most difficult one of all for him... 

[(poco) Sforzando]

Hi Sforzando,

1) Why is it dubious ?

That is correct.

2) Yes... And what is wrong with vocalise anyway ?

3) I am familiar with the history and gestation of this opera.

4) Trust me, I have been fanatically devoted to P&M for years....  But why is an appreciation of Maeterlinck essential to loving Debussy's opera ?

5) Music critic Harold C. Schonberg once wrote:

"Opera is defined by music. You can strip away the text and visual element and still have an opera. Movies - now there's a medium that is first and foremost a dramatic/visual art form. Opera, not even close. The fact that so many directors take so many liberties with opera simply serves to underscore how relatively unimportant the dramatic and visual element [sic] are. What conductor, at least today, would suggest fundamentally reworking the music of Wagner, Mozart, Verdi or Debussy ? Keep in mind that it is the composer - that is, the person who wrote the music - that is the most important and discussed the most. Clearly, music is the most important element.... No opera has ever remained in the repertory because it has a great libretto. It remains because the music is great...."   

*****

I could not agree more with this. 

1) Explained in my post.

2) "Passy vingt-deux-quinze" is not vocalise.

3) But you are apparently indifferent to the implications of your remark. Why would Debussy have found this and only this libretto suitable to him, if he didn't care very deeply about the characters and view of life presented therein?

4) Continuing #3, if one deeply cares about P+M, I would think one would want to know it in the way its story resonated for its composer.

5) "Directorial liberties" are besides the point; directors these days take liberties with everything, Shakespeare and the ancient Greeks included. Do we assume the dramatic elements in those works are secondary because directors take liberties with them? Of course music is the primary determining element in the success of any opera. But even Schonberg, in acknowledging "how relatively unimportant the dramatic and visual element [sic] are," does not dismiss these aspects of opera completely, as you apparently do.

In fact, I can't think of a worse possible example to make a case that "you can strip away the text and visual element and still have an opera" than P+M. Unlike (say) a Verdi or Mozart opera where the music generally tends to cohere, much of P+M is intensely heightened sung speech that only rarely jells into a musical texture that is coherent on its own. When Joseph Kerman wrote his "Opera as Drama" (a book I would recommend to anyone interested as being far more musically literate and subtle than anything Harold Schonberg has said), his chapter on P+M called the work "opera as sung play," in contrast to Wagner's Tristan, which he termed "opera as symphonic poem." But the end result of no opera can be divorced from its text, and P+M is no exception.

[Operahaven]

1) Explained in my post.

2) "Passy vingt-deux-quinze" is not vocalise.

3) But you are apparently indifferent to the implications of your remark. Why would Debussy have found this and only this libretto suitable to him, if he didn't care very deeply about the characters and view of life presented therein?

4) Continuing #3, if one deeply cares about P+M, I would think one would want to know it in the way its story resonated for its composer.

5) "Directorial liberties" are besides the point; directors these days take liberties with everything, Shakespeare and the ancient Greeks included. Do we assume the dramatic elements in those works are secondary because directors take liberties with them? Of course music is the primary determining element in the success of any opera. But even Schonberg, in acknowledging "how relatively unimportant the dramatic and visual element [sic] are," does not dismiss these aspects of opera completely, as you apparently do.

In fact, I can't think of a worse possible example to make a case that "you can strip away the text and visual element and still have an opera" than P+M. Unlike (say) a Verdi or Mozart opera where the music generally tends to cohere, much of P+M is intensely heightened sung speech that only rarely jells into a musical texture that is coherent on its own. When Joseph Kerman wrote his "Opera as Drama" (a book I would recommend to anyone interested as being far more musically literate and subtle than anything Harold Schonberg has said), his chapter on P+M called the work "opera as sung play," in contrast to Wagner's Tristan, which he termed "opera as symphonic poem." But the end result of no opera can be divorced from its text, and P+M is no exception.

Sforzando,

Are you saying that because most of  P&M  is in fact heightened sung speech that somehow those sounds are less accesible or beautiul or moving or dramatic or whatever than when they do "jell into a musical texture that is coherent on its own" ?

Isn't that subjective, though ?

I know what you mean by  "jell into a musical texture"  but the fact of the matter is that pretty much  all  of the vocal writing in P&M is enchanting and beautiful in my opinion. 

[(poco) Sforzando]

Sforzando,

1) Are you saying that because most of  P&M  is in fact heightened sung speech that somehow those sounds are less accesible or beautiul or moving or dramatic or whatever than when they do "jell into a musical texture that is coherent on its own" ?

2) Isn't that subjective, though ?

3) I know what you mean by  "jell into a musical texture"  but the fact of the matter is that pretty much  all  of the vocal writing in P&M is enchanting and beautiful in my opinion. 

1) No, I'm not saying anything of the kind.
2) No.
3) Undoubtedly true, but not relevant to my point.

[Alejandro C.]

Hello Operahaven!

"The most musically delicate opera..."  Have you heard of the Langen Mandra Wanara, a Javanese gamelan dance-opera, written by Prince Danuredjo VII around the turn of the last century?  Here's a link that describes its only complete recording:

http://www.lafolia.com/archive/silverton/silverton199808archdig.html

Here's the quote from the review that may be especially interesting to you, Operahaven:

"As Jacques Brunet observes, Langen Mandra Wanara's conception parallels that of Debussy's Pelléas et Mélisande, in what sounds, as does Debussy's great masterpiece, like music from another, dreamier world." 

Another description of the recording:

http://www.medieval.org/music/world/java.html