How to access Vocal/Opera/Choir?

[Tapio Dmitriyevich]

Hi,

I think many amongst GMG members, maybe a majority of all classical music (whatever that is) listeners do listen to music for bigger orchestras, without vocals. Maybe romantics, late romantics era.

I always found vocal music difficult to get access to. But I think about trying some more. There are some pieces of music which I liked:

- Mahler 2 Urlicht
- Mahler "Antonius zu Padua" (the lyrics piece of Sym2/3)
- Fauré - Requiem, esp. Pie Jesu.

I also begin to like religous choral stuff like Schuberts Deutsche Messe (D872).

If the human voice is also supported by an orchestra I tend to tolerate vocals easier.

Also, at some time I want to make a Wagner start. I planned to first get a "Ring without words" as a warmup.

Did you also have problems with vocal music and how come you started to appreciate it? What's a good start?

Michael

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Wagner was one of my first loves, and I never had any difficulties with his handling of the human voice. Where others dislike the Wagnerian Sprechgesang, I don't particularly like recitatives, whether in Bach or Mozart. And Italian vocal music is too cloyingly melodic. Come to think of it, I don't like Bach either in his cantatas and Mass. Heresy, maybe, but I don't like it. I like Mahler and Strauss, Schubert and Schumann and Wolf... And Elgar and Delius and and and (the Dane C. E. F. Weyse, too, contemporary of Schubert)...

I suggest you listen to Mahler's 'Des Knaben Wunderhorn' songs first, for voice and orchestra (I like Haitink very much, with the RCO and John Shirley-Quirk and Jessey Norman), and from there progress to Kindertotenlieder, Rückert-Lieder and Das Lied von der Erde. Reading the text is really important, there is in these songs such a tight fit between words and music, you need both to be able to appreciate the finished work fully.

When you have assimilated the orchestral song, you might try Schubert and Schumann and their great song-cycles. There the voice is supported by piano only, but with such richness and subtlety, you won't miss the larger forces.

Re Wagner - why not listen to some highlights of the operas, to get a flavour?

[Tapio Dmitriyevich]

I suggest you listen to Mahler's 'Des Knaben Wunderhorn' songs first, for voice and orchestra (I like Haitink very much, with the RCO and John Shirley-Quirk and Jessey Norman), and from there progress to Kindertotenlieder, Rückert-Lieder and Das Lied von der Erde. Reading the text is really important, there is in these songs such a tight fit between words and music, you need both to be able to appreciate the finished work fully.

When you have assimilated the orchestral song, you might try Schubert and Schumann and their great song-cycles. There the voice is supported by piano only, but with such richness and subtlety, you won't miss the larger forces.

Re Wagner - why not listen to some highlights of the operas, to get a flavour?

As for "Des Knaben Wunderhorn" - this is a good idea. I know my local library has a Chailly/RCO one. Wagner, maybe I watch out for a "Best of". I once listened to Siegfried, don't know which one it was- just found the vocals disturbing and couldn't understand them fully, even though I speak german.

[knight66]

I never had problems getting to grips with vocal music. It was through it that I found my interest in music more widely. The voice is my instrument, so that was a natural entry point for me.

Mike

[marvinbrown]

Hi,

I think many amongst GMG members, maybe a majority of all classical music (whatever that is) listeners do listen to music for bigger orchestras, without vocals. Maybe romantics, late romantics era.

I always found vocal music difficult to get access to. But I think about trying some more. There are some pieces of music which I liked:

- Mahler 2 Urlicht
- Mahler "Antonius zu Padua" (the lyrics piece of Sym2/3)
- Fauré - Requiem, esp. Pie Jesu.

I also begin to like religous choral stuff like Schuberts Deutsche Messe (D872).

If the human voice is also supported by an orchestra I tend to tolerate vocals easier.

Also, at some time I want to make a Wagner start. I planned to first get a "Ring without words" as a warmup.

Did you also have problems with vocal music and how come you started to appreciate it? What's a good start?

Michael

Sorry to hear about your troubles with vocal work Michael but I really can't relate to you here!   Opera and vocal is my favorite genre!  I really do need to hear the human voice- it is the greatest instrument ever devised- created.  My opera collection is massive and I buy more opera than any other genre.  Vocal music to me is the COMPLETE package!  Which brings us to Wagner (I kindly refer you to my avatar) who's concept of Gesamkunstwerk (Total Artwork) encompases music, singing,  drama and visual speactacle.  Listening to the Ring without words is like having apple pie a la mode without the ice cream.  My recommendation is for you to get into the story, the characters etc. of an opera first.  Soon you will appreciate the role vocals play as they carry the drama to the listener.  Wagner without words to me defeats the whole purpose of his genius.  But why start with Wagner??  Try some of Mozart's operas first, you might find them more accessible and your ears will become accustomed to hearing the human voice as a crucial integral part of a musical work of art.  Start with The Magic Flute that's what did it for me!  Good Luck!

  marvin   

[Papy Oli]

Michael,
Have you tried more requiems or stabat maters ? or are you struggling with those as well ?

Had a few vocal works listed there :

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,6690.0.html

some of my favorite vocal works in different styles, scaling down, to end with voices only :

- Schubert - Mass in E minor (D950)
- Brahms : Requiem
- Schutz : German Requiem
- Pergolesi : Stabat Mater
- Gorecki : Symphony No.3
- Schubert : winterreise
- Tallis : Salve Intemerata

(PS : I can relate to your struggle as far as opera is concerned though ! )

[71 dB]

Did you also have problems with vocal music and how come you started to appreciate it? What's a good start?

Not really. I liked oratorios and masses as soon as I got into classical music. Elgar's brilliant part-songs made me like acapella stuff.

Good start?

Bach's magnificat
Fauré's Requiem

[Tapio Dmitriyevich]

Have you tried more requiems or stabat maters ? or are you struggling with those as well ?

Ah great reminder, I remember I wanted to give the Dvorak Stabat Mater a try, had a short listen and liked it...

[rubio]

I must admit that I also have certain problems with operas where the "characters" rather talk than sing. It kind of interrupts the flow of the music for me, but this depends a bit on the specific performance and the interpretation chosen by the conductor.

[marvinbrown]

I must admit that I also have certain problems with operas where the "characters" rather talk than sing. It kind of interrupts the flow of the music for me, but this depends a bit on the specific performance and the interpretation chosen by the conductor.

  Sometimes lyricism or melodic music is not what the opera composer is intending to convey to the listener.  I faced a similar problem when I first encountered Richard Strauss' Elektra a very dissonant work without a single melody to hum or sing along to.  After repeated listening to a CD recording of this opera I did not make any progress so I bought a DVD recording of it and it suddenly clicked.  I finally understood what the music was meant to convey after watching the action on stage.  Now I can relate to very well.  Sometimes DVD productions help in approaching an opera!! 

marvin

[knight66]

Although nothing from Elektra gets sung as arias or scenes in concert programmes, nevertheless, there are tunes in it. I agree it is not primarily a melodic opera, but the tunes are there.

Mike

[marvinbrown]

Although nothing from Elektra gets sung as arias or scenes in concert programmes, nevertheless, there are tunes in it. I agree it is not primarily a melodic opera, but the tunes are there.

Mike

  Perhaps I was a bit harsh or narrow minded in my criticism.  Yes there are some lyrical parts to Elektra, the scene when Elektra recognizes her brother Oreste and sings of her joy and hardship comes to mind.  But that opera as whole, to me anyway, does not belong in the Romantic era of music. 

  marvin

[mn dave]

If you can't love this, there is no hope, Michael.

[Tapio Dmitriyevich]

Listening to Fauré's Requiem now for the 1000s time. I'm probably the worlds best Pie Jesu whistler now

[Purcell - Dido and Aeneas]

If you can't love this, there is no hope, Michael.

Ugh, Baroque music would mean an additional and serious obstacle. 

EDIT. Hey, can you recommend one of those? -->
http://youtube.com/results?search_query=purcell+laid+earth

[mn dave]

Ugh, Baroque music would mean an additional and serious obstacle. 

You might be surprised at how good it is.

EDIT. Hey, can you recommend one of those? -->
http://youtube.com/results?search_query=purcell+laid+earth

No. I don't have any Purcell DVDs.    Just recordings.

[Tapio Dmitriyevich]

No. I don't have any Purcell DVDs.    Just recordings.

No I rather asked what you'd recommend to listen to.

[mn dave]

No I rather asked what you'd recommend to listen to.

Try Baker, Otter or Kirby. Can't be bad. 

[Wendell_E]

Try Baker, Otter or Kirby. Can't be bad. 

I've got recordings with Troyanos and Norman.  Not bad, either.

But hey, it's youtube.  Listen to 'em all!

[Tapio Dmitriyevich]

I must admit that I also have certain problems with operas where the "characters" rather talk than sing. It kind of interrupts the flow of the music for me[...]

I agree fully here. It's because my expectation is rather to listen to a good piece of music than watching a theatrical piece. The last days I found out it's not the voice that I disliked, but also the talking. Yes, and I start to like the Purcell Opera, fortunately there's a libretto online.

[pjme]

I always liked the human voice - our breath!
Cathy Berberian, Andreas Scholl, Hungarian/Turkish/Norwegian/Italian...folksingers, voices of children,old people, drunkards, Yma Sumac, Lily Pons, elisabeth Schuman, a Russian Basso profundo....the variety is immens,the emotional impact can be huge.

I enjoy : Spanish music from the 15th  century : Llibre Vermell de montserat, "Ensaladas", Cipriano de Rore, Monteverdi; Stefano Landi ,Thomas Tallis , T.L.de Vittoria, Brahms, Schubert, Ravel, Debussy....Zoltan Kodaly, Francis Poulenc...and much,much morechoral music can be very rewarding. Some time ago I discovered the French composer Vincent Paulet - his choral works are very fine IMHO.

Oh, yes : these are all almost classic recordings with beautiful voices:

Régine Crespin / Ernest Ansermet : Berlioz: Les nuits d'été + Ravel's Shéhérazade ( superb diction, a creamy voice,two masterpieces)

Anne Sofie Von Otter + friends : chansons françaises on DGG ( Fauré, Frank Martin, Maurice Delage etc)
Jessye Norman : Erwartung / Philips ( Schönberg...difficult, sure , but a really great & gripping performance!)
Neil Rosenshein ( tenor ) he sings the only available version of C.M.Loeffler's 5 Irish fantasies ( on New world records) - very, very beautiful!
Françoise Pollet /Boulez : Messiaen: Poèmes pour Mi - early and very melodious Messiaen.
Gösta nystroem : Sinfonia del mare - with an exquisite song ( Ebba Lindqvist :Det enda) for soprano. Elisabeth Söderstrom is perfect in an older version conducted by Stig Westerberg . Charlotte Hellekant has also a beautiful voice  - in a more recent performance conducted  by Y.Svetlanov.

And back to Bach : the Motette!!!! :

Singet dem Herrn ein neues Lied, BWV 225
Der Geist hilft unser Schwachtheit auf, BWV 226
Jesu, meine Freude, BWV 227
Fürchte dich nicht, ich bin bei dir, BWV 228
Komm, Jesu, komm, BWV 229
Lobet den Herrn, alle Heiden, BWV 230



P.