Author Topic: Schumann's Shoebox  (Read 97161 times)

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Offline Mandryka

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Re: Schumann's Shoebox
« Reply #420 on: May 28, 2019, 12:32:15 AM »
Thanks, I especially appreciated Queyras's cello. I thought the second movement is one of those things that's never forgotten once heard, the third even more so.

The fourth movement, that's where I though I could sense irrationalty, potentially it could be really wonderful.

Amazing music really. Nice recording,  good sound.
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Offline amw

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Re: Schumann's Shoebox
« Reply #421 on: May 28, 2019, 02:55:23 AM »
I love that last movement but can't think of a recording that does it justice. It's definitely on the edge of irrationality in a way Schumann hadn't attempted since 1841 out of fear of madness (finales of the piano quintet, A major string quartet, etc)

Offline Mandryka

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Re: Schumann's Shoebox
« Reply #422 on: May 28, 2019, 07:18:45 AM »
This may be worth trying for a bit of  kraftig on the edge, I've just dipped in so I could be wrong.



maybe this too



and possibly even this

« Last Edit: May 28, 2019, 07:21:07 AM by Mandryka »
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Offline Mandryka

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Re: Schumann's Shoebox
« Reply #423 on: June 07, 2019, 09:26:44 PM »
Anyone know how the sound of the three quartets is on this transfer?

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Online Jo498

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Re: Schumann's Shoebox
« Reply #424 on: June 07, 2019, 10:54:56 PM »
I never really understood why the first Schumann trio seems to dominate the others so clearly. The 3rd one might suffer from the prejudice against "late" Schumann. I have around 3 recordings (Florestan, Jean Paul, Altenberg) but cannot be more specific with recommendations.

I have been eyeing the Juilliard box for years but never got it because I had the quartets in private LP transfers and the other pieces have been available for a long time on CD. The quartets are very good (whereas the quintet and quartet seem somewhat dominated by the characters of the respective pianists) and AFAIR the sound is the typical dry and close 70s Juilliard/CBS sound. Not sure how much a CD transfer would change that, if at all.
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Offline Mandryka

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Re: Schumann's Shoebox
« Reply #425 on: June 08, 2019, 12:54:12 AM »
Well I’ve got something which I’ve tagged as the Juilliard playing the Schumann, with these timings for the first, 41/1

Movement 1 9,29
Movement 2 4,09
Movement 3 6,51
Movement 4 6,33

Is that the same as the old LPs on that Japanese transfer?
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Offline Herman

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Re: Schumann's Shoebox
« Reply #426 on: June 08, 2019, 07:14:11 AM »
Anyone explored the G minor piano trio? Is there an exceptionally perceptive, imaginative, passionate performance of it on record? Is it any good as music?

I've always liked the G minor. Every movement has much to offer, and particularly the last mvt is uniquely felicitous, with the lovely material for the cello.

There's is the old, and still prevalent idea that Schumann was spent, and going nuts, after his youthful works. I know I would be going crazy with such a large family. Schumann wrote a terrific amount of music (and a lot of journalism as well), so if not everything is top notch it would only be natural, but in my view the op 110 Trio belongs to the very good works.

In addition to the recordings mentioned there's a very good recording in the Eric LeSage series on Alpha, with Nicolitch on violin and Christophe Coin on cello.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2019, 07:16:36 AM by Herman »

Offline Herman

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Re: Schumann's Shoebox
« Reply #427 on: June 08, 2019, 07:33:54 AM »
I've always liked the G minor. Every movement has much to offer, and particularly the last mvt is uniquely felicitous, with the lovely material for the cello.

Having just listened to the G minor I was again reminded that the other super fun thing about the last movement is it is a Polonaise, and it is very hard not to picture a whole gang of these 1845 men and women tripping couple by couple down the floor  -  at least in Schumann's mind.

Offline Mandryka

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Re: Schumann's Shoebox
« Reply #428 on: June 08, 2019, 08:22:03 AM »
Having just listened to the G minor I was again reminded that the other super fun thing about the last movement is it is a Polonaise, and it is very hard not to picture a whole gang of these 1845 men and women tripping couple by couple down the floor  -  at least in Schumann's mind.

Yes like some of those waltzes in Papillons.
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Offline Herman

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Re: Schumann's Shoebox
« Reply #429 on: June 08, 2019, 12:22:43 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUZ4S28FCgk

G minor trio live by Inon Barnatan, piano
Julian Rachlin, viool
Torleif Thedéen, cello

Offline Mandryka

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Re: Schumann's Shoebox
« Reply #430 on: June 08, 2019, 08:46:48 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUZ4S28FCgk

G minor trio live by Inon Barnatan, piano
Julian Rachlin, viool
Torleif Thedéen, cello
Cheers Herman, I enjoyed that over breakfast, I appreciate the lightness in that first movement very much.

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Offline Mandryka

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Re: Schumann's Shoebox
« Reply #431 on: June 09, 2019, 01:03:27 AM »


I’ve been enjoying the op 41/2 here. I don’t know where I got the transfer from, but it’s not bad at all. Extraordinary second movement, as bold as Haydn and late Beethoven. I think new transfers are going to be released this month in fact. If anyone wants mine they can PM me.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2019, 01:06:37 AM by Mandryka »
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SymphonicAddict

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Re: Schumann's Shoebox
« Reply #432 on: August 02, 2019, 05:38:07 PM »
Schuman is one of those composers 'graciously academic'. Some superb chamber music, first-rate literary wealth, but rather weak piano/orchestral pieces overall? I'm not sure, but I'm exploring. I hope don't hurt any sensibilities. Among the symphonies, I would save the 2 and 4. 1 and 3 do few for me. Chamber music... the superbly crafted and heartfelt Piano Quartet (heard in live!), rather clever music! And poetic, of course, but a bit insipid, maybe (?). Insipid by its That is like a general concept of mine, but yours are equally respected as expected!

What do you think? But threat yourself each other as you would like threat with, no offense is intended! I don't know his lieder or songs, but are a bit boring for my taste (again, no offense is intended!!!). What do you think, yeah, don't be an asslicker nor a foolish hooligan.

OK, continue...

Offline Madiel

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Re: Schumann's Shoebox
« Reply #433 on: August 02, 2019, 06:26:30 PM »
You should try the songs. That's actually the bit of Schumann that really made me sit up and notice. I think his major song cycles are amongst the best by any composer.

As far as piano pieces go I've always had a fondness for the op.17 Fantasy. Things like Carnaval are also good but they really take a bit of getting used to the deliberately fragmentary nature of Schumann's approach (and need a pianist who can hold it all together).
« Last Edit: August 02, 2019, 06:28:07 PM by Madiel »
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Offline kyjo

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Re: Schumann's Shoebox
« Reply #434 on: August 02, 2019, 07:03:12 PM »
Schuman is one of those composers 'graciously academic'. Some superb chamber music, first-rate literary wealth, but rather weak piano/orchestral pieces overall? I'm not sure, but I'm exploring. I hope don't hurt any sensibilities. Among the symphonies, I would save the 2 and 4. 1 and 3 do few for me. Chamber music... the superbly crafted and heartfelt Piano Quartet (heard in live!), rather clever music! And poetic, of course, but a bit insipid, maybe (?). Insipid by its That is like a general concept of mine, but yours are equally respected as expected!

What do you think? But threat yourself each other as you would like threat with, no offense is intended! I don't know his lieder or songs, but are a bit boring for my taste (again, no offense is intended!!!). What do you think, yeah, don't be an asslicker nor a foolish hooligan.

OK, continue...

Yeah, Schumann's chamber music is definitely my favorite part of his output. The Piano Quintet and Piano Quartet are absolutely first-rate, brilliant works with intensely moving slow movements. The 1st and 3rd piano trios are very good as well, and the string quartets are more uneven but have some imaginative moments (I like the 3rd the best). Oh, and the Five Pieces in Folk Style for cello and piano are brilliant, characterful works (the second movement is gorgeous in its lullaby-like simplicity). You must hear these in the magisterial recording by Steven Isserlis and Felicity Lott.

As far as his orchestral output goes, I enjoy his symphonies (like you, especially the 2nd and 4th) but wouldn't take them to a desert island with me. I'm not a great fan of the Piano Concerto aside from the charming central movement. Ditto the Violin Concerto. The Cello Concerto has grown on me though I've always thought the orchestral writing to be rather dull. But, I really do like his other two concertante works for piano, the Introduction and Allegro appassionato, op. 92 and the Concert Allegro with Introduction, op. 134. Two fiery and poetic works for sure.

I've had trouble getting into his celebrated solo piano music, save for the epic C major Fantasy, the gorgeous Romance in F-sharp, op. 28/2, and the dramatic Aufschwung from the Fantaisiestucke, op. 12. Much of the rest of it that I've tried has bored me, but I don't know the sonatas well at all. I don't know much of his lieder, save for the compelling Ich grolle nicht from Dichterliebe (what a great chord progression it has!). I also know the Requiem, which has a most beautiful opening and very good next few movements, but rather trails off in inspiration as the piece progresses IMO.

Just my two cents! I usually do not consider Schumann among my favorite composers but he undoubtedly wrote some treasurable music.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2019, 07:14:41 PM by kyjo »
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Online Jo498

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Re: Schumann's Shoebox
« Reply #435 on: August 02, 2019, 11:35:20 PM »
The piano music (and the lieder) is usually considered the strongest part of Schumann and the earlier pieces are rather the opposite of "academic". Schumann became more academic later on and overall his chamber and orchestral is far more "academic" than the piano music. Although he is one of the first and very few composers who tried to transfer improvisatory short pieces (or sets of such pieces) in chamber music, more of his chamber music is more conventional. Some of the later piano music is also more academic with pseudo-Bachian fughettes, "canonic studies" etc.
This does not mean that his more conventional music is not often original in other ways or is weaker than the (early) piano music.

(The works that are probably least known and hardest to appreciate are the choral works that in my ears mix great moments with romantic soppiness and often bizarre libretti. Nevertheless, it is also a fairly substantial body of work and there is also one opera.)
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Re: Schumann's Shoebox
« Reply #436 on: August 03, 2019, 11:31:30 AM »
Yeah, Schumann's chamber music is definitely my favorite part of his output. The Piano Quintet and Piano Quartet are absolutely first-rate, brilliant works with intensely moving slow movements. The 1st and 3rd piano trios are very good as well, and the string quartets are more uneven but have some imaginative moments (I like the 3rd the best). Oh, and the Five Pieces in Folk Style for cello and piano are brilliant, characterful works (the second movement is gorgeous in its lullaby-like simplicity). You must hear these in the magisterial recording by Steven Isserlis and Felicity Lott.

As far as his orchestral output goes, I enjoy his symphonies (like you, especially the 2nd and 4th) but wouldn't take them to a desert island with me. I'm not a great fan of the Piano Concerto aside from the charming central movement. Ditto the Violin Concerto. The Cello Concerto has grown on me though I've always thought the orchestral writing to be rather dull. But, I really do like his other two concertante works for piano, the Introduction and Allegro appassionato, op. 92 and the Concert Allegro with Introduction, op. 134. Two fiery and poetic works for sure.

I've had trouble getting into his celebrated solo piano music, save for the epic C major Fantasy, the gorgeous Romance in F-sharp, op. 28/2, and the dramatic Aufschwung from the Fantaisiestucke, op. 12. Much of the rest of it that I've tried has bored me, but I don't know the sonatas well at all. I don't know much of his lieder, save for the compelling Ich grolle nicht from Dichterliebe (what a great chord progression it has!). I also know the Requiem, which has a most beautiful opening and very good next few movements, but rather trails off in inspiration as the piece progresses IMO.

Just my two cents! I usually do not consider Schumann among my favorite composers but he undoubtedly wrote some treasurable music.

Interesting impressions, Kyle. I share many of your views about Schumann. He's not in my first lines of preference either, many of his works haven't clicked on me yet. They're not properly bad, but they do fail to engage me. Nice you mentioned the rarely played works Opp. 92 and 134, two more interesting concertante pieces than his Piano Concerto, which I think it's somewhat overrated. The chamber works other than the Piano Quintet and Piano Quartet seem slightly tasteless for me, albeit I'm not gonna give up. I do remember, e.g. the Three Romanzas for oboe and piano Op. 94 being rather beautiful. The lieder are virtually unknown for my ears, so I can't mention anything about it. The only choral work I've ever heard by him is Die Paradies und die Peri, but it was a frustrating disappointment. Oh, and the piano sonatas are excellent. I almost forget them, I really like them.


The piano music (and the lieder) is usually considered the strongest part of Schumann and the earlier pieces are rather the opposite of "academic". Schumann became more academic later on and overall his chamber and orchestral is far more "academic" than the piano music. Although he is one of the first and very few composers who tried to transfer improvisatory short pieces (or sets of such pieces) in chamber music, more of his chamber music is more conventional. Some of the later piano music is also more academic with pseudo-Bachian fughettes, "canonic studies" etc.
This does not mean that his more conventional music is not often original in other ways or is weaker than the (early) piano music.

(The works that are probably least known and hardest to appreciate are the choral works that in my ears mix great moments with romantic soppiness and often bizarre libretti. Nevertheless, it is also a fairly substantial body of work and there is also one opera.)

Yes, definitely is the piano output one of his high points. I should explore that part of his music. Kreisleriana and the Symphonic Studies, as far as I remember, delighted me.

Offline kyjo

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Re: Schumann's Shoebox
« Reply #437 on: August 03, 2019, 07:18:01 PM »
Interesting impressions, Kyle. I share many of your views about Schumann. He's not in my first lines of preference either, many of his works haven't clicked on me yet. They're not properly bad, but they do fail to engage me. Nice you mentioned the rarely played works Opp. 92 and 134, two more interesting concertante pieces than his Piano Concerto, which I think it's somewhat overrated. The chamber works other than the Piano Quintet and Piano Quartet seem slightly tasteless for me, albeit I'm not gonna give up. I do remember, e.g. the Three Romanzas for oboe and piano Op. 94 being rather beautiful. The lieder are virtually unknown for my ears, so I can't mention anything about it. The only choral work I've ever heard by him is Die Paradies und die Peri, but it was a frustrating disappointment. Oh, and the piano sonatas are excellent. I almost forget them, I really like them.

As far Schumann's other chamber music besides the Piano Quintet and Piano Quartet goes, I'd highly recommend this fantastic set of the piano trios if you don't know it already:



Thanks for mentioning the piano sonatas! I was just listening to No. 1 and enjoyed it quite a bit. It excited me more than some other solo piano works of his I had tried recently, such as Davidsbündlertänze and Waldszenen. Then again, I tend to not be the biggest fan of "miniatures" and prefer larger-scale works.
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Re: Schumann's Shoebox
« Reply #438 on: August 05, 2019, 01:23:44 PM »
As far Schumann's other chamber music besides the Piano Quintet and Piano Quartet goes, I'd highly recommend this fantastic set of the piano trios if you don't know it already:



Thanks for mentioning the piano sonatas! I was just listening to No. 1 and enjoyed it quite a bit. It excited me more than some other solo piano works of his I had tried recently, such as Davidsbündlertänze and Waldszenen. Then again, I tend to not be the biggest fan of "miniatures" and prefer larger-scale works.

Thanks for the suggestion. I do have that set. In fact, last weekend I played the Piano Trio No. 1. It bettered a little from the last time.

Offline vers la flamme

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Re: Schumann's Shoebox
« Reply #439 on: August 05, 2019, 04:06:19 PM »
I have the Florestan Trio disc with Schumann's piano trios (two of them anyway, not quite sure how many he wrote) and I enjoy it. But I would have to say that my favorites of his chamber music are his A major string quartet and the E-flat major piano quintet.

Anyway, for me as many others, the piano music is the peak of Schumann's worth to me. It's all incredibly unique, and so much of it is so beautiful.

I picked up this box set for extremely cheap and have been listening to it sporadically as of late. I think there is some worthy stuff here, plenty of legendary pianists have been included.



Any opinions on this set?