Topic: Schumann's Shoebox

[Florestan]

Musical fantasy -- free inspiration, almost like notated improvisation -- has been a central concept since Francesco Da Milano and probably before. It is possibly the most important idea in recent music, underlying idea anyway, even if not explicitly articulated. The romantic trope of creative genius makes fantasy central -- Schumann's just doing what 19th century geniuses were expected to do, like Liszt.

Poetry is the spontaneous overflow of powerful feelings: it takes its origin from emotion recollected in tranquillity

I know of no better, or more suitable, definition of the genuinely Romantic creative process --- of which Schumann and Liszt are indeed prime musical examples.

[OrchestralNut]

I've never heard Schumann's cello concerto. What's a good recording of it?

I meant to reply to this sooner. I really love Schumann's concertos, and the cello concerto is no exception.

The recording I have and really enjoy is Lynn Harrell on the cello, with Sir Neville Marriner conducting the Cleveland Orchestra. Decca Label.

[Jo498]

In this respect, Schumann most closely resembles... Mozart! Yes, Mozart, who wrote to his father that in his (Wolfgang's, that is) music there's something for everyone, be they laymen or connoisseurs.

I don't quite agree. Sure, there are some Schumann piees where this works well. But I'd guess that the huge difference between that half dozen of quite popular piano pieces and the rest shows that there is quite a bit of Schumann that is not so easily accessible for laymen. And the same goes for Lieder vs. other choral/vocal music (almost unknown despite at least two large scale works, "Faust-Szenen" and "Paradies und die Peri") etc.

[Mandryka]

I don't quite agree. Sure, there are some Schumann piees where this works well. But I'd guess that the huge difference between that half dozen of quite popular piano pieces and the rest shows that there is quite a bit of Schumann that is not so easily accessible for laymen. And the same goes for Lieder vs. other choral/vocal music (almost unknown despite at least two large scale works, "Faust-Szenen" and "Paradies und die Peri") etc.

I don’t think that the popularity/unpopularity of things by Schumann is anything to do with structure. There are popular fantasiestucke and unpopular sonatas with subjects and development and such like. It may be intrinsic to the music, but if it is I can’t say what. It may be extrinsic, marketing, reputation, Schumann was mad so wrote rubbish music after the early opuses, that sort of idea. Some/Many/Most people can’t hear the theme in the Goldberg variations, as far as they’re concerned it’s a weird cycle of random pieces, but it’s popular. Structure and accessibility are not obviously related in tonal music, where there’s always a home key to get back to and travel away from.

I’m really interested in the idea of musical fantasy, and it’s relation to musical craftsmanship, the artisanal skill of making common practice compositions, and to improvisation. Good topic for a Ph.D!

[Jo498]

I don’t think that the popularity/unpopularity of things by Schumann is anything to do with structure.

Neither do I. That's actually part of what I tried to say but apparently expressed very badly. Admittedly, I added to the confusion by bringing in the vocal music that is probably less popular for totally different reasons (secular oratorios and similar stuff are hard sells from any composer).

There are popular fantasiestucke and unpopular sonatas with subjects and development and such like. It may be intrinsic to the music, but if it is I can’t say what.

There are several factors. Carnaval is the most pianistically brilliant, the pieces are short and picturesque and it is rather unimportant to make the connections to the titles (but picturesque titlles probably help) or the 4 sphinx notes. Kinderszenen, Waldszenen, even Fantasiestücke op.12 also have nice titles, are short and mostly immediately appealing. Symphonic etudes is one of the most obviously structured. Kreisleriana and Davidsbündler are not quite as popular because longer, not as obviously picturesque (no titles like Kinderszenen or Carnaval). The oddest pieces like Humoreske and Noveletten are among the least popular, also the sonatas are too far from Beethoven or whatever we take as model to have ever become really popular (esp. 2+3).

[Florestan]

Kreisleriana and Davidsbündler are not quite as popular because longer, not as obviously picturesque (no titles like Kinderszenen or Carnaval).

What a strange assertion. K and DBT are just as popular as KS and C, both among pianists (who often record them in pairs) and the audience who fill the seats of any such recital. They are not much longer (actually, depending on performance, they can be shorter than C)  and their melodic appeal is similarly immediate.

[Mandryka]

I just remembered this exchange of opinions in 2013.  Dancing Divertimento feels well plugged in to accepted wisdom and has clear judgements about quality.

I've never explored Carnival records much, it's somehow never grabbed me as much as Davidsbündlertänze or even the etudes.

.

I'd say take the piece on its own terms. It doesn't spiral in and out of sanity like some of the other pieces but the fantasy is of a high order. Perhaps try it with some popcorn.

. . . The key big work for me is neither Carnival nor the Etudes but Davidsbundlertanze. But really you should hear the sonatas too, op 11 especially.

. . .
Re Carnival, which I've decided I just don't really like, . . .

I think that's a rather eccentric view and certainly backwards to accepted wisdom. Not that having your personal preferences is in any way invalidated by "accepted wisdom" but putting forward DBT as a "go to" work above Carnival and the etudes is like saying Schubert's first symphony is the "go to" symphony over his ninth. Obviously good listening isn't in short supply in either work but structurally and thematically the maturity of the ninth is impossible to beat.

DBT has its partisans - and I like it too, of course - but I don't see it matching in quality the sheer brilliance of other more cohesive works.

Really? Whose wisdom? I suspect you need to think harder about DBT.

I've been thinking about DBT for 25 years now.

I'm a DBT fan too. Have been so for decades, and I think it's as cohesive as romantic era music gets.

Well, I didn't say I didn't like the DBT. It is indeed a nice piece. I just wouldn't classify it as a "first choice" Schumann piece. That should go to the Fantasie, Kreisleriana, the etudes...even some of the song cycles.


 

The question though isn't about whether or not you like it, it's about coherence. I thought your point was that it's a second rate work for some reason.

The main thrust of my objection to your comment was elevating the DBT over such renowned works as the etudes and Carnival.

Because there's some coherence problem with DBT? Or what?

Thematically, structurally, whatever, the DBT isn't a top tier Schumann work. I and others ENJOY the piece of course but beyond that...

[Herman]

Interesting, that 2013 discussion. I would guess that the Divertimentian kind of prefers the more Beethoven-underpinned Schumann, and that's okay.

[Jo498]

What a strange assertion. K and DBT are just as popular as KS and C, both among pianists (who often record them in pairs) and the audience who fill the seats of any such recital. They are not much longer (actually, depending on performance, they can be shorter than C)  and their melodic appeal is similarly immediate.

I don't have exact statistics but I'd bet a reasonable amount that Kinderszenen is BY FAR the most popular piece of the ones mentioned. Not only Träumerei but altogether it's almost the only Schumann piece that is popular in the sense of Wedding Marches and Hungarian dances. And I am also quite sure that my order of popularity is roughly correct for the other ones. As for length, I was unclear, I meant not the overall length of the cycles but more the lengths of the pieces contained.
In any case, bracket DBT and some others as borderline cases. I think there cannot be any doubt that there is a large popularity gap among different pieces of Schumann's piano oeuvre. That Demus box with solo piano has 13 CDs. I'd say, the popular pieces are about 3-4 discs worth, another 3rd is in the middle and the last 3rd is quite obscure (or piano lesson stuff like Album für die Jugend). (Of course, pieces are mostly "mixed" in that Demus box, so that's a rough estimate.)

And a  lot of this music is not at all like Mozart's, immediately appealing and therefore comparably popular, even in case of lesser known pieces. Humoreske is an odd and "awkward" piece by almost any measure, I'd say. It's never going to be as popular as Chopin's 2nd sonata or Schumann's Symphonic Etudes.

[Florestan]

I think there cannot be any doubt that there is a large popularity gap among different pieces of Schumann's piano oeuvre.

This, while true, is hardly a uniquely Schumann phenomenon. Aside from Alla Turca (and only its rondo, for that matter), how many other Mozart piano sonatas or piano works are as popular as the Wedding March or the Hungarian Dance No. 5 (I'm using your own yardstick)? Or take Beethoven: Fuer Elise by far, followed by the first movement of the Moonlight Sonata. For Liszt there is Liebestraum No. 3. Chopin is perhaps the happiest case, there' are three popular pieces: the Funeral March, Etude Op. 10/3 and Nocturne Op. 9/2.

Humoreske is an odd and "awkward" piece by almost any measure, I'd say.

Actually, what is so odd and awkward about it?

[Mandryka]

The interesting thing for me is why works by Beethoven (op 131) or Gesualdo (Tenebrae) are deemed by "accepted wisdom" to be masterpieces even though they're certainly odd and possibly awkward, yet when it comes to poor little Schumann, he's pilloried and vilified. It's a question of the reception of the music, not a question of the music. Schumann's shocks to the establishment  haven't been reconstructed and absorbed.

[vers la flamme]

If anyone would care to please recommend excellent recordings of Schumann's Lieder, male or female vocalist, I would be much, much obliged 

[hvbias]

If anyone would care to please recommend excellent recordings of Schumann's Lieder, male or female vocalist, I would be much, much obliged 

Hyperion probably have the most complete box, I've heard some individual volumes and they were quite good. As a whole if it's as good as their Schubert lieder set it's probably a must have.

Elly Ameling and Jörg Demus should have an easy to find CD on DHM. That is my single favorite Schumann lieder disc, but it's mixed with Schubert... part of the reason I like it so much

[Madiel]

I have the Hyperion box and enjoy it greatly.

Also have one of the albums done by Wolfgang Holzmair and Imogen Cooper. To be honest I haven’t listened for a while but have positive memories.

Great, now I’m going to have to bring my plan to relisten to the Lieder forward…

[Mandryka]

If anyone would care to please recommend excellent recordings of Schumann's Lieder, male or female vocalist, I would be much, much obliged 

Gerhaher/Huber

[Jo498]

If anyone would care to please recommend excellent recordings of Schumann's Lieder, male or female vocalist, I would be much, much obliged 

The two most important cycles are the Eichendorff-Lieder op.39 and "Dichterliebe" op.48.
Despite a lame pianist, I like the Dichterliebe with Wunderlich for his glorious voice (filled with Schubert and Beethoven, I think). Despite his somewhat dry voice I also like the op.39 (+ op.48, although there are different, usually cheap, issues with different couplings) by Schreier/Shetler (they did most of the important Lieder but I don't know the rest very well, if one generally likes Schreier, it's probably worth getting the whole bunch cheaply from Berlin Classics).
As I also got a live Orfeo disc with Fischer-Dieskau singing op.39 and 35 this must have been very good because I have this singer also in several older studio recordings in boxes with this music.

Then probably the Kerner op.35 (a loose collection, a bit uneven, IMO) and the "little Dichterliebe" (i.e. also Heine lyrics and a similar theme) op.24. In addition to Fi-Di I like Pregardien/Gees.

I never really got into the main "female" cycle, "Frauenliebe und leben" but op.39 and op.35 are also frequently sung by women, although I tend to prefer male voices.

I also love the mixed recital already mentioned with Ameling/Demus (although I think more for the Schubert).

[Florestan]

If anyone would care to please recommend excellent recordings of Schumann's Lieder, male or female vocalist, I would be much, much obliged 

[Mandryka]

I have very much enjoyed the Schreier in the past, but I think that for me, for my taste in voice and style, Gerhaher and Camilla Tilling blows him away.

[SonicMan46]

In this respect an even better option is this:

Hi Andrei - boy, that Holliger box looks great - how consistent are the performances (e.g. symphonies vs. concertos)?  Unfortunately, expensive on Amazon USA (i.e. $60 USD) and not available as a physical package at my usual 'across the pond' places - I've been going through my Schumann collection the last 3-4 days, all instrumental, i.e. a lot of solo piano, chamber works, and the symphony performances shown below.

There have been many other recommendations for these works in the pages here - but for those reading the thread and wanting to add Robert's symphonies to their collection, then the ones below are worth a listen and consideration - I enjoy each one; for those interested, reviews are attached.  BUT, I must look further into that Holliger box and explore some of the 'used' sources -    Dave