Schumann's Shoebox

[Jo498]

I have the Florestan Trio disc with Schumann's piano trios (two of them anyway, not quite sure how many he wrote) and I enjoy it.

The Florestan are very good (they have two discs with all of them). There are 3 standard trios and a 4th one op.88 that is called Fantasiestücke. As another filler sometimes one finds the studies for pedal piano (gems that show the reception of Bach) in an arrangement for trio by Kirchner.

[vers la flamme]

The Florestan are very good (they have two discs with all of them). There are 3 standard trios and a 4th one op.88 that is called Fantasiestücke. As another filler sometimes one finds the studies for pedal piano (gems that show the reception of Bach) in an arrangement for trio by Kirchner.

I still need to get my hands on the other Florestan Schumann disc – unless someone wants to point out a worthy alternative to me  ... meanwhile I've discovered another phenomenal disc of great Schumann chamber music...: Isabelle Faust and Silke Avenhaus playing Schumann's three violin sonatas for CPO. Unfortunately, I cannot find a halfway decent image online, but here is an Amazon link for anyone curious who might not have it....:

[asin]B00004W555[/asin]

My favorites are the D minor and the posthumous A minor, but all three are beautiful, sensuous, wistful and thought provoking works of art, mature offerings from a master composer. Sometimes I forget how much I love Schumann's music, but when I am receptive to it, it is some of the greatest music to ever grace my ears.

I also recently got my hands on "Das Paradies und die Peri", with Simon Rattle conducting the LSO on the LSO Live label, but I've yet to hear it all. I ought to change that soon.

[Que]

Here you go!

[vers la flamme]

Here you go!

Awesome, thanks a lot. I understand that some here seem to dislike nudity in album artwork, but I think this is a beautiful cover that suits the music.

[vers la flamme]

I would like to know what are some good recordings of Schumann's op.110 out there. I know the Florestan Trio have recorded it and I very much like their other Schumann disc, but what else is out there? I am really developing a taste for Schumann's late chamber music.

Maybe Mandryka can help me with this, I seem to remember him liking this work.

[Mandryka]

Has anyone besides The Leipzig Quartet recorded the first version of any op 41s?

[amw]

I think the Eroica Quartet is also the first version, but not 100% sure.

[Mandryka]

I can't make out whether they just keep some of the original ideas of the second quartet or preserve the whole original version

The Autograph Manuscript of Schumann's Quartets Schumann's autograph manuscript of his three String Quartets, now in the Heinrich Heine Institute in Dusseldorf, contains the usual sort of corrections and changes one might expect in a composer's working manuscript. There were also changes made between the manuscript stage and the first edition stage — presumably with the composer's approval. All of these changes might be said to fall into three categories: (1) changes made during the process of composing; (2) changes of a more practical sort made as a result of hearing the work rehearsed, perhaps at the suggestion of the performers; and (3) compositional changes which represent the retraction or toning-down of radical ideas, perhaps at the suggestion of others (often of his wife, Clara). Being a working manuscript, rather than one copied out after the completion of the compositional process, it is full of examples of the first type of change. There is also much evidence of the second category. This is not surprising, given Schumann's close collaboration with the violinist Ferdinand David. Perhaps the most arresting change of this type — possibly made at David's suggestion — was to erase the 'con sordino' indication at the opening of the First Quartet. These changes — the composer's own 'improvements' — are interesting only in the sense that they show the compositional process in action. But in the third category, Schumann seems to have been particularly vulnerable to the suggestion that some his original ideas were too radical. (Towards the end of his life, such works as the Violin Concerto were censored or even destroyed by Clara, who misread their compositional originality as signs of mental illness.)

Normally, a composer's final version or 'Fassung letzter Hand' is considered to have ultimate authority. But perhaps in Schumann's case, it is also worth entertaining his earlier thoughts, if we can. It is usually impossible to re-establish the original intention, especially where the watering-down suggestion may have been made part-way through the compositional process. However the Quartets throw up a particularly interesting example of this third kind of change The Second Quartet in its published form opens with a long sweeping melody in 3/4 time [Track 7], although this was initially preceded by a bold and arresting four-bar gesture marked stringendo' [Track 2]. (Example 1 shows it crossed out in manuscript stage.) This idea was then dropped, but not entirely thrown out. Extraordinarily, the deleted passage was transferred verbatim into the First Quartet: it is inserted in squashed writing as bars 30-33 after the first-movement Introduzione [Track 1], just before the start of the exposition [Allegro, Track 3], also in F major (Example 2). Perhaps Schumann felt — or was convinced — that it was too bizarre at the opening of the Second Quartet: it certainly changes the mood of its first movement. Whether this change was Schumann's own `improvement', or one inspired by fear of being too radical, we cannot know. On this recording we have allowed listeners the chance to decide for themselves.

DAVID WATKIN /EROICA QUARTET

[Madiel]

I can't make out whether they just keep some of the original ideas of the second quartet or preserve the whole original version

That reads very much as if they've simply created track programming in such a way that you can insert the idea now found in the 1st quartet back into the 2nd quartet, by programming track 2 before track 7.

[Mandryka]

That reads very much as if they've simply created track programming in such a way that you can insert the idea now found in the 1st quartet back into the 2nd quartet, by programming track 2 before track 7.

Thanks, I just couldn't make sense of it. It certainly doesn't sound as thrilling as Leipzig in Op 43 / iii, or rather, it didn't this morning, though that could be other things than the version used obviously.

[vers la flamme]

So what changed between the original op.41 quartets and the revision? I understand they became shorter. Mandryka, I take it you prefer the originals—why?

I have been listening to the Zehetmair Quartett recordings of op.41/1 and op.41/2. Phenomenal performances both. (Surely the revisions.)

[Mandryka]

So what changed between the original op.41 quartets and the revision? I understand they became shorter. Mandryka, I take it you prefer the originals—why?

I have been listening to the Zehetmair Quartett recordings of op.41/1 and op.41/2. Phenomenal performances both. (Surely the revisions.)

All I can say is this. The Leipzig op 41/iii seems to me to have an impetuous, turbulent quality which I don't recall in other versions, though whether this is the performance, the score or just my mood, I don't know. It is crazier!

Unfortunately I didn't keep the Leipzig Quartet booklet when I ripped the CDs so I don't know what they say about the version in the score.

The MDG recording is still in print, but I can let you have concert performances from the Leipzigs which a couple of Schumann quartets if you want, I'm not sure it's as impressive as the studio recording though.

I too remember Zehetmair was fun in Schumann, though it's years since I last heard it.

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Happy belated to the master.



Anyone listening to his music today (or yesterday)...? For me it's been the Faschingschwank aus Wien, Piano Trio No.1, Davidsbündlertänze, Symphony No.2, & a couple of other things... enjoying everything.

[Florestan]

Happy belated to the master.



Anyone listening to his music today (or yesterday)...? For me it's been the Faschingschwank aus Wien, Piano Trio No.1, Davidsbündlertänze, Symphony No.2, & a couple of other things... enjoying everything.

Today on radio Kinderszenen with Martha Argerich; last week also on radio Etudes Symphoniques with Ivo Pogorelich.

I too enjoy everything by Schumann, he's in my top 10.

[vers la flamme]

Today on radio Kinderszenen with Martha Argerich; last week also on radio Etudes Symphoniques with Ivo Pogorelich.

I too enjoy everything by Schumann, he's in my top 10.

Nice. Both he and your current avatar Franz Schubert are in my top 5, I think.

Now playing the D minor Violin Sonata. A great work...

[amw]

There are many great recordings of the Fantasy in C but I've never heard pianism to equal this one. Possibly the best recording of them all?? (Even with the occasional flubbed note.) Listen to it and tell me if I'm wrong.

[Mandryka]

There are many great recordings of the Fantasy in C but I've never heard pianism to equal this one. Possibly the best recording of them all?? (Even with the occasional flubbed note.) Listen to it and tell me if I'm wrong.

You're wrong.

[amw]

My mom (who was listening along with me) thinks so too. Oh well. I'm very impressed with his control of the long line and the way he brings to the fore and empathises with the obsessive rhythmic and phrase patterns that dominate the music, so that it seems genuinely on the edge of madness. But I suppose there's a small chance it may not be the best Schumann Fantasy of all time, strictly speaking.

[Mandryka]

My mom (who was listening along with me) thinks so too. Oh well. I'm very impressed with his control of the long line and the way he brings to the fore and empathises with the obsessive rhythmic and phrase patterns that dominate the music, so that it seems genuinely on the edge of madness. But I suppose there's a small chance it may not be the best Schumann Fantasy of all time, strictly speaking.

In my experience of moms, they're always wrong.

They fuck you up, your mum and dad.   
    They may not mean to, but they do.   
They fill you with the faults they had
    And add some extra, just for you.

But they were fucked up in their turn
    By fools in old-style hats and coats,   
Who half the time were soppy-stern
    And half at one another's throats.

Man hands on misery to man.
    It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
    And don't have any kids yourself.

[amw]

In my experience of moms, they're always wrong.

My mom's opinion was that I should learn to play the Schumann Fantasy myself (definitely wrong) but among existing versions she expressed a preference for Vladimir Ashkenazy 1965 (only slightly wrong).