Schumann's Shoebox

Started by aquablob, April 07, 2007, 08:11:59 AM

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Bogey

If you don't have this one on the shelf for less than $7, then you are missing an incredible Three Romances #2 (Semplice).  The rest of the disc also is under the green lemon.

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There will never be another era like the Golden Age of Hollywood.  We didn't know how to blow up buildings then so we had no choice but to tell great stories with great characters.-Ben Mankiewicz

Madiel

Yesterday and today I've been listening to the "Kerner Lieder" (or "12 Gedicthe von Justinus Kerner"), op.35, for the first time in a long while.

I remembered I liked it, but my goodness. Stirb', Lieb' und Freud' is just an absolutely extraordinary song. Or maybe it's Wolfgang Holzmair's performance that is extraordinary.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

EigenUser

I recently acquired the score for the 4th symphony. You know, the more I hear it, the more I realize how ingenious the work is. It is extremely tightly-knit music that does so much with so little.

Any thoughts on this piece? What symphony is generally considered Schumann's best?
Beethoven's Op. 133 -- A fugue so bad that even Beethoven himself called it "Grosse".

Ken B

Quote from: EigenUser on May 27, 2014, 07:23:08 PM
I recently acquired the score for the 4th symphony. You know, the more I hear it, the more I realize how ingenious the work is. It is extremely tightly-knit music that does so much with so little.

Any thoughts on this piece? What symphony is generally considered Schumann's best?
3 is the usual choice. It was the last one. But it's not like Franck, where pretty much everyone agrees on the best symphony.

SonicMan46

Well, for those who may want a 'complete solo piano' collection by a single pianist - the Eric Le Sage box is available on Amazon Prime for $33 (13 discs) - Todd brought my attention to this offering in the listening thread today (do have the 2-CD set below which I enjoy); my Schumann Piano Music collection is a 'mishmash' w/ 8 performers (see quote below) put together over many years - need to 'cull out' a few but nearly all of those recordings have received excellent reviews - Dave :)

QuoteArgerich, Martha - Kinderszenen/Kreisleriana (1) - 5* (i.e. Amazon rating)
Cabasso, Laurent - Kreis./Nacht./Fantstk./Bunte (2) - 5*
Freire, Nelson - Carnaval/Papillons/Kindersz./Arabesq. (1) - 5*
Hamelin, M-A - Papillons/Fantasiestucke/Carnaval (1) - 4.6*
Kuijken, Piet (FP) - Novell./Kindersz./Humor./Arab./Blume/Rom./Nach. (2) - 5*
Le Sage, Eric - Humor./Buntebl./EtudesSymphoniques (2) - ?
Perahia, Murray - Davidsbund./Fantasiestucke (1) - 5*
Wurtz, Klara - Kreisl./PS 1/2/Piano Conc./Faschingss. (3) - 5*

 

SonicMan46

As I was reviewing my Schumann solo piano collection, thought that I'd also look @ the chamber works (i.e. piano trios, quartet & quintet) - just have the BAT twofer from the 1970s - there appears to be a number of more modern choices, so put in an order for the two below:

 

Ken B

Quote from: SonicMan46 on July 17, 2014, 09:29:59 AM
Well, for those who may want a 'complete solo piano' collection by a single pianist - the Eric Le Sage box is available on Amazon Prime for $33 (13 discs) - Todd brought my attention to this offering in the listening thread today (do have the 2-CD set below which I enjoy); my Schumann Piano Music collection is a 'mishmash' w/ 8 performers (see quote below) put together over many years - need to 'cull out' a few but nearly all of those recordings have received excellent reviews - Dave :)

 
Todd, from his comments so far, isn't a big fan of the Le Sage box. I am  though.

Brahmsian

Listening to some of Bobby's solo piano music and chamber music:

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This set of piano trios combined with the quintet and quartet is a desert island choice for me, without question.

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Brian

Sound samples indicate that Ticciati's Schumann is a unique, unusual take in many ways. (Just listen to the finale of the Third in the clip.) Another indicator: David Hurwitz just named it a "CD from Hell" and said that "Everything, and I mean everything, about these performances is bad."

Jo498

Quote from: EigenUser on May 27, 2014, 07:23:08 PM
I recently acquired the score for the 4th symphony. You know, the more I hear it, the more I realize how ingenious the work is. It is extremely tightly-knit music that does so much with so little.

Any thoughts on this piece? What symphony is generally considered Schumann's best?

The 4th used to be the most frequently played and recorded, I think. It is clearly the most unified and most tightly-knit as you already observed. For me, it's the best and also one of the most convincing romantic symphonies in the wake of the (similarly motivically unified) Beethoven 5th.
The 1st is also very nice but considerably "lighter". I find the 3rd uneven, more interesting than convincing (after the first movement which I like a lot). The 2nd has grown on me, the slow movement is probably my favorite orchestral piece by Schumann and the Scherzo is one of his most brilliant but I am still not convinced by the noisy finale with the repetition of one of Schumann's signature quotes (a phrase from Beethoven's "An die ferne Geliebte" songs) repeated ad nauseam.
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

amw

Quote from: Brian on September 20, 2014, 05:20:20 PM
Sound samples indicate that Ticciati's Schumann is a unique, unusual take in many ways.
Ticciati conducts with a pianist's phrasing, HIP inflexions and a fair amount of tempo manipulation. Mario Venzago's Bruckner has been cited as a similar approach. In the world of Schumann symphonies, picture Kubelik's line plus Gardiner's detail (plus the SCO sound, of course). I'm really enjoying it so far.

Wanderer

Quote from: amw on November 28, 2014, 01:23:50 AM
I'm really enjoying it so far.

Ditto. These are lithe performances, also transparent, which allows the orchestration to shine through.

amw

Quote from: Jo498 on November 28, 2014, 01:15:12 AM
The 4th used to be the most frequently played and recorded, I think. It is clearly the most unified and most tightly-knit as you already observed. For me, it's the best and also one of the most convincing romantic symphonies in the wake of the (similarly motivically unified) Beethoven 5th.
The 1st is also very nice but considerably "lighter". I find the 3rd uneven, more interesting than convincing (after the first movement which I like a lot). The 2nd has grown on me, the slow movement is probably my favorite orchestral piece by Schumann and the Scherzo is one of his most brilliant but I am still not convinced by the noisy finale with the repetition of one of Schumann's signature quotes (a phrase from Beethoven's "An die ferne Geliebte" songs) repeated ad nauseam.

The 2nd is my choice for Schumann's greatest symphony, largely because it's closest in style and form to his early piano works. (Yes, the finale is the least successful movement, but played with a good deal of energy and fire it makes a decent conclusion.) The 4th (1841 version) is my second choice, followed by the 1851 4th (perhaps more coherent structurally, but all the added repeat signs—as in Kreisleriana—weaken the sense of a continuous "stream of consciousness" with all these short ideas/fragments appearing briefly never to be heard again. the 1841 4th is much more like the symphony Hölderlin would have written.). I like the 3rd and 1st, but not as much as the other two.

Among Schumann's sonata-type works, excluding the Fantasy Op. 17, I find the most successful to be the Sonata Op. 11 trailed at some significant distance by the Piano Quintet Op. 44 and Quartet Op. 47, then the quartets, the other sonatas (although Op. 22 is significantly improved by substitution of the original 'Presto passionato' finale) etc. The symphonies are among the least characteristic and distinctive of Schumann's works actually—apart from his tendency to repeat things over and over and over again and the rhythmic patterns that can only be disrupted through violent effort, they could have been written by Mendelssohn. Which would be high praise for Schumann himself I guess, but Mendelssohn has 5 perfectly good symphonies of his own I can listen to. ;) The 2nd is the one that works least well as a Mendelssohnian neo-classical symphony which is possibly why I like it so much; the 4th (posterity's pick if not mine) is most successful if thought of as a large-scale "symphonic poem" rather than a symphony, like the Fantasy for piano and orchestra (which became the 1st movement of the Piano Concerto) or anything Liszt wrote with orchestra

EigenUser

Quote from: Jo498 on November 28, 2014, 01:15:12 AM
The 4th used to be the most frequently played and recorded, I think. It is clearly the most unified and most tightly-knit as you already observed. For me, it's the best and also one of the most convincing romantic symphonies in the wake of the (similarly motivically unified) Beethoven 5th.
The 1st is also very nice but considerably "lighter". I find the 3rd uneven, more interesting than convincing (after the first movement which I like a lot). The 2nd has grown on me, the slow movement is probably my favorite orchestral piece by Schumann and the Scherzo is one of his most brilliant but I am still not convinced by the noisy finale with the repetition of one of Schumann's signature quotes (a phrase from Beethoven's "An die ferne Geliebte" songs) repeated ad nauseam.

I'd say the 4th and 2nd are my favorite Schumann symphonies (in order). I love the 3rd, too. The opening of the first movement always makes me think of  "Oh, My Darling!" :D (anyone else know what I'm talking about?). His 1st symphony lags behind for me.

I like the noisy finale of the 2nd ;D.
Beethoven's Op. 133 -- A fugue so bad that even Beethoven himself called it "Grosse".

Jo498

I prefer most of the chamber music to the op.11 sonata but I do not know this sonata as well as e.g. piano quintet/quartet. It's also somewhat repetitive in the first movement I seem to recall (this anapaestic motive is repeated forever).
For me, in the symphonies the burden of tradition seems to impede Schumann to some extent. As you said, something like a symphonic poem in one great arch might have been more congenial and the d minor symphony is close (I think it was also called "symphonische Phantasie" at some stage). E.g. the "Spring symphony" is a nice piece but while some details may be recognizable as "Schumannian", overall it is not terribly original.
I am not able to give a detailed justification but the chamber music, even it is similarly beholden to traditional types and sequences of movements seems to capture more from the "phantastic", quirky spirit of the piano music. Or whatever, by now I guess I just prefer his chamber music to most of the symphonies.
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

AdamFromWashington

What is the general opinion on Schumann's Violin Concerto in D minor? I listened to it last night and found it very enjoyable. The first movement reminded me of Brahms and Nielsen in parts, and the dissonances seemed ahead of their time. The middle movement was simply gorgeous. The last movement rambled, but I still liked it.


jlaurson

#316
Quote from: Adam of the North(west) on March 22, 2015, 02:16:24 PM
What is the general opinion on Schumann's Violin Concerto in D minor? I listened to it last night and found it very enjoyable. The first movement reminded me of Brahms and Nielsen in parts, and the dissonances seemed ahead of their time. The middle movement was simply gorgeous. The last movement rambled, but I still liked it.

Absolute Masterpiece, if one likes late Schumann. The way he quotes (or rather: foreshadows) the Ghost Variations... the insistence of the first movement... I can't wait to get my paws on Isabelle Faust's rendition, after hearing her twice in two nights with this (and the other two concertos). A dear acquaintance of mine, a lady of advanced years but feisty spirit enough for three, called Clara Schumann some very unkind names, after the performance. (She burnt the work, thinking it an embarrassment to her husband's memory.)


R. SchumannViolin Concerto, Trio
Isabelle Faust / Freiburg BO /  Pablo Heras-Casado
+ J.G.Queyras, A.Melnikov
DG

German link - UK link

AdamFromWashington

#317
Quote from: jlaurson on March 22, 2015, 02:25:48 PM
Absolute Masterpiece, if one likes late Schumann.

I wholeheartedly agree. And "insistent" is a perfect way to describe the first movement. It's desperate, scrambling, tumbling over shadows, spilling light across the page, in a mad race just to finish. I read on Wikipedia that Joachim thought it showed "a certain exhaustion, which attempts to wring out the last resources of spiritual energy." Only I wish that Clara, and Brahms, and Joachim realized THAT THAT WAS NOT A BAD THING! It does sound exhausted, and it does sound like a man working at the edge of his sanity, because that's exactly what it is, and I wouldn't want the piece any other way (though I would prefer that poor Schumann lived much longer).

That Faust recording is the one I listened to last night. Let me tell you, I'm very jealous of your concert experience, because this recording is especially impressive. Faust is one of my favorite violinists (only on record, unfortunately, because I'm in no position to attend concerts). A sweet tone with just the right amount of grit. Unlike many modern violinists, who forget the "grit" (I like to feel the violin, dang it!).  ;D

Jaakko Keskinen

Quote from: Adam of the North(west) on March 22, 2015, 02:16:24 PM
What is the general opinion on Schumann's Violin Concerto in D minor? I listened to it last night and found it very enjoyable. The first movement reminded me of Brahms and Nielsen in parts, and the dissonances seemed ahead of their time. The middle movement was simply gorgeous. The last movement rambled, but I still liked it.

Couple of years ago I wrote here that it is probably my favorite violin concerto. It isn't one anymore but I still quite like it. Very enjoyable, as you said. Certainly much better than its reputation.
"Javert, though frightful, had nothing ignoble about him. Probity, sincerity, candor, conviction, the sense of duty, are things which may become hideous when wrongly directed; but which, even when hideous, remain grand."

- Victor Hugo

Wakefield

Quote from: jlaurson on March 22, 2015, 02:25:48 PM
Absolute Masterpiece, if one likes late Schumann. The way he quotes (or rather: foreshadows) the Ghost Variations... the insistence of the first movement... I can't wait to get my paws on Isabelle Faust's rendition, after hearing her twice in two nights with this (and the other two concertos). A dear acquaintance of mine, a lady of advanced years but feisty spirit enough for three, called Clara Schumann some very unkind names, after the performance. (She burnt the work, thinking it an embarrassment to her husband's memory.)


R. SchumannViolin Concerto, Trio
Isabelle Faust / Freiburg BO /  Pablo Heras-Casado
+ J.G.Queyras, A.Melnikov
DG

German link - UK link

It seems the complete series will be mandatory. What a great idea to record the concertos and the piano trios together!

I have read that gut strings will be used in this project ("The Guardian", for instance), but I'm not sure if the violin used by Mrs. Faust is gut-stringed. Do you have some information about it?   
"One of the greatest misfortunes of honest people is that they are cowards. They complain, keep quiet, dine and forget."
-- Voltaire