Astonishing photos from the Opening Ceremony

[Bunny]

i made that statement first after reading about the drink customs, and the Olympics, and so on.... I'm not a very smart person, but even a monkey is beginning to see what Bunny is trying to do here.

I didn't know you are a monkey. 

And you apparently don't know what Bunny is trying to do. Bunny is trying to point out the Chinese people deserve more than an expensive show, and that any government that is more concerned with the show than the individual people is perhaps not the greatest thing in the world since the invention of the wheel.  Add to that the Chinese government's lack of honor with respect to the use of child athletes who are separated from their families and forced to compete in activities that have serious risk attached to them without any choice, and perhaps you will begin to understand why the whole business has made the Bunny rabid.  I cannot for athe life of me understand why anyone would think that any gold medal is so important that a child's life need be disrupted.  Call it culture shock, but Bunny here thinks that the Chinese government thinks more about its prestige than about the individual Chinese who seem to be very expendible, especially if they are female.

[Sarastro]

Bunny is trying to point out the Chinese people deserve more than an expensive show, and that any government that is more concerned with the show than the individual people is perhaps not the greatest thing in the world since the invention of the wheel.  Add to that the Chinese government's lack of honor with respect to the use of child athletes who are separated from their families and forced to compete in activities that have serious risk attached to them without any choice, and perhaps you will begin to understand why the whole business has made the Bunny rabid.  I cannot for athe life of me understand why anyone would think that any gold medal is so important that a child's life need be disrupted.  Call it culture shock, but Bunny here thinks that the Chinese government thinks more about its prestige than about the individual Chinese who seem to be very expendible, especially if they are female.

Doesn't Bunny take into account what the Chinese themselves think about it? Or Bunny just wants to seed American Democracy there? It is so typical of some people to interfere in other people's lives...to set their values and rules for others...

That is China's business if they make fake documents, let underage children perform on the Olympics, and do not keep security (it is so easy to post on the forum something like "it wouldn't have happened, if..." But it has happened, and it was an accident. No?). Let it be on their conscience, let it make them feel uncomfortable. They don't need your "sympathy" and "wishing what they deserved," they are stronger. Just recently I heard a piece of nonsense from an American lady who had returned from China. I really think she'd better take care of herself, not of "the poor Chinese." Mentalities are different, and as long as the Chinese are happy with their regime, it shouldn't bother you. When people are not satisfied with the government, they overthrow it, like it happened many times in history. It happened, too, in China, most recently: at the beginning of the 20th century, and in the middle, actually.
If the Chinese speak out that they are pissed off with the ceremony and the Olympics, that they freaked out at what their government does - then it makes sense. But according to what I've seen and heard so far (I've also Chinese friends, and they have friends back in China), they seem to be happy and proud of their China. And it is not as loathsome as you portray.

Of course, we must control each other (nuclear power, etc.), otherwise...but in reality we know nothing about this controlling and what missiles other nations have, what submarines, etc. I myself have no strong desire to interfere in other people's lives (without them asking me to) and dictate how they must live, what they deserve and what not. They know it better, I suppose.

I suggest that you think about America, where it is going now, and perhaps take some action to make life better. Sorry for my dumb post.

[M forever]

Sorry for my dumb post.

Yes, that really was a very dumb post. It is true, people should not just point fingers at other places and political situations, also reflect on and, if possible, speak out about the situations in their homeland. Which I have to say Bunny has often done here when it came to discussing American politics.
In essence, what you are saying is that we shouldn't care about the situation of people in other countries, and that is a horrible thing to say because things are really bad for a lot of people in a lot of places. Most people in the world live under far worse economical and political situations than we pampered people in the Western world whose wealth is partially based on exploitation of other people. Although a lot of that is still going on, the overall situation has gotten much better. Pointing out human rights issues wherever they happen is very important.
And people don't simply go and overthrow their government if things aren't OK. They didn't - they couldn't - in the country you come from until they were lucky enough that the system disintegrated. And that system hadn't been put in place by "the people" either. You should read up on the histoty of your own country some time. People didn't overthrow the Nazi regime in Germany either, they were, in a bizarrely ironic way, lucky that they lost the war because those who survived it gained more freedom than ever before. No regime in human history has killed off more people - and its own people at that - than the communist regime which, technically is still in charge in China. Things seem to have greatly improved there and that's a good thing, maybe this political form is the right way for them, but it can't be the right thing if it also involves serious human rights violations on a very large scale. Unless you think that Chinese people don't severve the same basic rights as people in other parts of the world. Is that what you think?
You really need to do a lot of reading up on history.

[Sarastro]

Yes, that really was a very dumb post. It is true, people should not just point fingers at other places and political situations, also reflect on and, if possible, speak out about the situations in their homeland. Which I have to say Bunny has often done here when it came to discussing American politics.
In essence, what you are saying is that we shouldn't care about the situation of people in other countries, and that is a horrible thing to say because things are really bad for a lot of people in a lot of places. Most people in the world live under far worse economical and political situations than we pampered people in the Western world whose wealth is partially based on exploitation of other people. Although a lot of that is still going on, the overall situation has gotten much better. Pointing out human rights issues wherever they happen is very important.
And people don't simply go and overthrow their government if things aren't OK. They didn't - they couldn't - in the country you come from until they were lucky enough that the system disintegrated. And that system hadn't been put in place by "the people" either. You should read up on the histoty of your own country some time. People didn't overthrow the Nazi regime in Germany either, they were, in a bizarrely ironic way, lucky that they lost the war because those who survived it gained more freedom than ever before. No regime in human history has killed off more people - and its own people at that - than the communist regime which, technically is still in charge in China. Things seem to have greatly improved there and that's a good thing, maybe this political form is the right way for them, but it can't be the right thing if it also involves serious human rights violations on a very large scale. Unless you think that Chinese people don't severve the same basic rights as people in other parts of the world. Is that what you think?
You really need to do a lot of reading up on history.

All those fancy words by pro-Western zealots, whose nations promoted imperialism/colonial regime, slave trading, feudalism, and other things like that (all in the past, of course) are not very reassuring. Founding Fathers of the USA, although declaring democracy and equality, had black slaves in their homes. Where was the equality? The next step was a humiliating law that counted a slave as 3/5 of a man in voting. Fortunately it's passed by now, but took a very long time to do so. So why don't you think that some day the Chinese would come to it? And, I was taught here that American democracy at a closer look is not so democratic as we used to think.

What about humans rights, I am now remembering how the US is endeavouring to get things done in Iraq. And did in Vietnam, too, also using a chemical weapon Agent Orange to kill the crops and destroy the living environment, so the Vietnamese are still experiencing its consequences. I'm also remembering how nice was to drop atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Really, that worked out great! What human rights were they thinking about?

Sorry, M, but I learned the history of my country not by fancy books, but also with my life there (The 1917 revolution, by the way, literally overthrew the Tsar's reign and killed the entire royal family. I did not mean the Soviet disintegration - it destroyed itself). I am just considering Russian mentality. In the other thread ezodisy alluded to Dostoevsky and others (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,8694.msg217782.html#msg217782), and you just don't know how true it is, all the Russians I know admit that's true. Have you been in Russia? Have you known the Russians that well? Then you just don't understand, that is, after all, because we are all different, the Chinese, the Germans, the Americans, the Dutch. Even between ourselves: some are melancholic, others - aggressive, submissive, lazy, energetic, etc. And we all choose our style of life.

Your are an idealist. Ah, if only we had peace and equality in the world! Come on, 37 million people in the USA live below the poverty line, many more have no medical insurance at all so can't visit a doctor. Illegal immigrants here have no rights and do not hope for bright future at all, the economy is recessing, causing people to economize on food, making them literally tighten their belts! Of course, that is not as bad as in Africa, and I support material aid, but only aid for its countries, let them decide what kind of government they want. And yes, it also concerns the Soviets and their communistic propaganda in the reluctant post-war Eastern Europe. I do not favor such kind of things. 

[M forever]

All those fancy words by pro-Western zealots, whose nations promoted imperialism/colonial regime, slave trading, feudalism, and other things like that (all in the past, of course) are not very reassuring. Founding Fathers of the USA, although declaring democracy and equality, had black slaves in their homes. Where was the equality? The next step was a humiliating law that counted a slave as 3/5 of a man in voting. Fortunately it's passed by now, but took a very long time to do so. So why don't you think that some day the Chinese would come to it? And, I was taught here that American democracy at a closer look is not so democratic as we used to think.

What about humans rights, I am now remembering how the US is endeavouring to get things done in Iraq. And did in Vietnam, too, also using a chemical weapon Agent Orange to kill the crops and destroy the living environment, so the Vietnamese are still experiencing its consequences. I'm also remembering how nice was to drop atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Really, that worked out great! What human rights were they thinking about?

Next time, please actually read a post before you reply to it in so many confused words:

It is true, people should not just point fingers at other places and political situations, also reflect on and, if possible, speak out about the situations in their homeland. Which I have to say Bunny has often done here when it came to discussing American politics.

...and which a lot of other people here, including myself, have done on many occasions. And not just about American politics and history. A lot of people here are highly critical of their own governments and politics, and all the dirty past and present in Western politics and history in general.
You bla-bla for several paragraphs as if there weren't lots of discussions of that nature going on here all the time. You have no basis to say that. And the nice thing is, that in most of the Western world, you can actually have these discussions openly and publically without fear of persecution.
I think all people everywhere in the world deserve to have the same basic rights. That has nothing to do with diversity of culture. And nobody said that things are just great everywhere in any part of the world. Again, people here have heated discussions about these topics all the time, so I wonder how you came up with all that nonsense.

And you really, really need to read up the history of your own country. You seem to be massively confused about the exact sequence of events there, especially when it comes to 1917. You should be embarrassed to be so badly informed about the history of your own country.

Have you known the Russians that well? Then you just don't understand, that is, after all, because we are all different, the Chinese, the Germans, the Americans, the Dutch. Even between ourselves: some are melancholic, others - aggressive, submissive, lazy, energetic, etc. And we all choose our style of life.

So on the one hand, we are all different and we all want to choose our style of life, but on the other hand, you are saying that all Russians are just like Dostoevsky said? That means, they are not supposed to choose their style of life themselves, because they need to be dominated? Probably not. I think what that means is simply that you are really confused about these things.


BTW, you deserve some credit for being still so young, but you have used up that credit very fast, so next time, read the posts you reply to and think about your reply carefully if you don't want to disqualify yourself as a serious discussion partner.

[Sarastro]

Next time, please actually read a post before you reply to it.

I just think we do not understand each other very well.

So on the one hand, we are all different and we all want to choose our style of life, but on the other hand, you are saying that all Russians are just like Dostoevsky said?

I took this example to show you that people are different, so are nations. Ok, let's try something else, perhaps, the felines: breeds are different with their peculiarities. Is it clear now? And yes, most (not all) Russians are so. If you do not believe me, try at least to believe Dostoevsky, Tolstoy, Goncharov, and Gorkiy.

That means, they are not supposed to choose their style of life themselves, because they need to be dominated?

No. Try to read one more time.

And you really, really need to read up the history of your own country. You seem to be massively confused about the exact sequence of events there, especially when it comes to 1917. You should be embarrassed to be so badly informed about the history of your own country.

What's wrong, M, specify, please. Be concrete and refer to some sources.

The October Revolution overthrew the Russian Provisional Government and gave the power to the Soviets dominated by Bolsheviks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_Revolution

[Bunny]

Doesn't Bunny take into account what the Chinese themselves think about it? Or Bunny just wants to seed American Democracy there? It is so typical of some people to interfere in other people's lives...to set their values and rules for others...

That is China's business if they make fake documents, let underage children perform on the Olympics, and do not keep security (it is so easy to post on the forum something like "it wouldn't have happened, if..." But it has happened, and it was an accident. No?). Let it be on their conscience, let it make them feel uncomfortable. They don't need your "sympathy" and "wishing what they deserved," they are stronger. Just recently I heard a piece of nonsense from an American lady who had returned from China. I really think she'd better take care of herself, not of "the poor Chinese." Mentalities are different, and as long as the Chinese are happy with their regime, it shouldn't bother you. When people are not satisfied with the government, they overthrow it, like it happened many times in history. It happened, too, in China, most recently: at the beginning of the 20th century, and in the middle, actually.
If the Chinese speak out that they are pissed off with the ceremony and the Olympics, that they freaked out at what their government does - then it makes sense. But according to what I've seen and heard so far (I've also Chinese friends, and they have friends back in China), they seem to be happy and proud of their China. And it is not as loathsome as you portray.

Of course, we must control each other (nuclear power, etc.), otherwise...but in reality we know nothing about this controlling and what missiles other nations have, what submarines, etc. I myself have no strong desire to interfere in other people's lives (without them asking me to) and dictate how they must live, what they deserve and what not. They know it better, I suppose.

I suggest that you think about America, where it is going now, and perhaps take some action to make life better. Sorry for my dumb post.

There you go again!  You assume that all of the Chinese are happy with their government.  Of course they will say they love their government, just as every Iraqi assured anyone who bothered to ask that they "loved" Saddam before his overthrow, and every Russian "loved" Stalin during his lifetime.

Falsified documents for athletes is actually the business of the International Olympic Committee.  They are responsible for maintaining the integrity of the Olympic games.  If they can't do that or are unwilling to do so for whatever reason, then they should resign.  If China wants to play with the rest of the world, then China has to play by the rules.  If China is going rogue and using underage athletes, then perhaps it's time the IOC demanded bone density/age studies and dental xrays to forensically determine physical age.  Certainly that would be one way of keeping the games honest.

Btw, when it comes to universal medical coverage in the USA, the people who suffer the most are not those living below the poverty line.  They have government funded Medicaid which ensures them care at just about any emergency room in the nation.  It's the lower middle class family, usually one parent, that falls between the cracks.  And if you are concerned that people in America are starving, you can relax.  Starvation and malnutrition are not problems for the poor in America.  To the contrary, the biggest nutritional problem for the poor in America is obesity, and I've got this from many doctors who have studied the problem. 

Homelessness is a problem here now, especially with the real estate bubble bursting.  However, Americans are resilient so I have confidence that we will stand together and work to alleviate this problem too.  And, if you want to think of how deperately low the poverty level is here, only consider the poverty level in China or even in Russia.  If you asked the average Chinese if he thinks that someone living the way the poor live in America is badly off, he will think you are crazy.  To him that would be the equivalent of being middle class.

[Sarastro]

You assume that all of the Chinese are happy with their government.

Of course, I didn't. Not all of the Americans are happy with Bush... But he's finishing hie eighth year in the office.

Falsified documents for athletes is actually the business of the International Olympic Committee.  They are responsible for maintaining the integrity of the Olympic games.  If they can't do that or are unwilling to do so for whatever reason, then they should resign.  If China wants to play with the rest of the world, then China has to play by the rules.  If China is going rogue and using underage athletes, then perhaps it's time the IOC demanded bone density/age studies and dental xrays to forensically determine physical age.  Certainly that would be one way of keeping the games honest.

You are right, but as for me, this hodge-podge and scandals about the Olympics make the Games very unpleasant.

only consider the poverty level in Russia. 

Oh, I knew the poverty level in Russia. Not as bad as you think, it has shrunk twice since the 1998 default and is still lowering. Soon it is the same as in the USA, but consider Russia's population is twice smaller.

And if you are concerned that people in America are starving, you can relax.  Starvation and malnutrition are not problems for the poor in America.  To the contrary, the biggest nutritional problem for the poor in America is obesity, and I've got this from many doctors who have studied the problem. 

Bunny, I live in the United States, and as far as I know, obesity is often caused by cheap and unhealthy food. What causes people to buy cheap food?