What does Beethoven's 9th symphony mean to you?

[from the new world]

Now that you mentioned it, the few CDs that I have that are over 80 minutes are all by DG. Of the top of my head the Thielemann Bruckner 5th clocks in at over 80 minutes. I guess they feel bad charging you two CDs for such a mediocre performance huh ?

2 of the discs in the Chailly Mahler symphony boxset (Decca) are over 80 mins, and there is a Rattle Strauss disc (EMI), but the Thielemann B5 at 82.34 is the longest I know of.

[Ten thumbs]

It would be fascinating to know the exact length of Mendelssohn's rendering.

[karlhenning]

It would be fascinating to know the exact length of Mendelssohn's rendering.

I think the dimension of Mendelssohn's rendering is volume rather than length

[jochanaan]

PS - Anyone know how many 78's in a box to record a complete 9th, back in the day? Just curious...

Don't know about B9, but Mahler's Second came on 11 discs (the Oskar Fried recording).

[RJR]

It's the existential musings of a human soul reproduced by human made instruments which are then transmitted through the air by sound waves which resonate in the mind and body of other human souls.

[mahler10th]

It means to me sitting 23 storeys up in flats in springtime 1991, playing it loud with the windows open (Karajan, 62 on Vinyl) and learning the words to the Ode.

[ajlee]

I can't believe this idiotism! How difficult is it understand that Dittersdorf, Vanhal, Hofmann and others were respected composers in their lifetime and unjustinly forgotten? Do you think the 18th century Vienese music life sucked so badly only Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven were able to compose good music? Dittersdorf was Haydn's most important competitor! He was elevated to noble rank!

Britney Spears did (maybe still does) also enjoy high esteem in her lifetime. We'll let time decide in 50 years.

In short: Life's too short.

[ajlee]

You know what I think is also a masterpiece??

THIS THREAD!!

I just spent the last 1.5 hours reading every post and enjoyed every second of this Classical-music-forum soap opera. Props to the guy who started it!

Let's now start one asking the same question about Mozart's No.41..... 

[Jupiter]

Since when does music mean anything? Sounds pitched at certain intervals. Where's the "meaning"?

My comment is not merely facetious. It's also deeply philosophical.

[Gurn Blanston]

Since when does music mean anything? Sounds pitched at certain intervals. Where's the "meaning"?

My comment is not merely facetious. It's also deeply philosophical.

Well, while in general I would agree with you, I have to make the point that those comments only apply (and have ever applied throughout the history of musical philosophy) to solely instrumental music.

The 'meaning' such as it is, that is attached to the 9th is clearly focused on the final movement, Schiller's An die Freude. The previous 3 movements, although they are instrumental, are not 'absolute music' in that they are most definitely composed as an aid to the 4th movement. They are more than a prologue, they are an illustration of the point that the composer is trying to make.

The 3rd symphony, and the 5th, both of which have been heavily invested with 'meanings' for the last 200 years are well deserving of your attempt to clear up the trash. As Toscanini told his orchestra while rehearsing the first movement of the Eroica "To some this is about Napoleon; to some it is Alexander the Great; to some it is philosophical struggle. To me it is Allegro con brio". 

Further, I would add that if any work (not simply the greatest work of all time) has a personal meaning to someone,  which is not necessarily a 'meaning' of the music, but an association with something extra-musical whenever one hears it, then there is no philosophy involved. It is more simply (for example) "whenever I hear the 9th, I remember back to Sunday's listening with my father while my mother went to church, and it was great". So that has meaning too. The reason that I bring this point up is that when this thread was first started, that is what I thought the thread starter was asking about. POV got switched about some since then, but I will say that this work is exceptional since it is vocal, thus immune from the scourge of extra-musical attachments.




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Now playing:
Quatuor Festetics - Hob 03 37 Op 33 #1 Quartet in b 3rd mvmt - Andante

[Jupiter]

Mmm, a thoughtful reply. Much to ponder.

Sure, when I hear the conclusion to the 9th I imagine something glorious and uplifting. I suppose I was questioning the inherent meaning behind a note or series of notes. Sure, these have associated meaning - a deep bass suggests melancholy, or a series of soaring high notes suggests uplift, for example. We are merely ascribing meaning via association. It's like trying to establish the meaning of a colour! What meaning does red have, beyond the usual cultural markers such as love, danger, fire, etc? None. It is part of the sprectrum.

Anyway, this is too deep for me at the moment. I'm going to go away and listen to Bartoli sing Vivaldi.  To hell with meaning!

[Gurn Blanston]

Mmm, a thoughtful reply. Much to ponder.

Sure, when I hear the conclusion to the 9th I imagine something glorious and uplifting. I suppose I was questioning the inherent meaning behind a note or series of notes. Sure, these have associated meaning - a deep bass suggests melancholy, or a series of soaring high notes suggests uplift, for example. We are merely ascribing meaning via association. It's like trying to establish the meaning of a colour! What meaning does red have, beyond the usual cultural markers such as love, danger, fire, etc? None. It is part of the sprectrum.

Anyway, this is too deep for me at the moment. I'm going to go away and listen to Bartoli sing Vivaldi.  To hell with meaning!

Well, inherent meaning is a tough nut to crack. For example, if a piece of (pre-1830) music in the key of F major has a prominent lyrical flute part, you or I would say "hey, that symphony in F has a prominent lyrical flute part, very pretty!".  But the composer or any of his contemporaries would have automatically known beyond question that this was a pastoral scene, and adjusted their thinking accordingly. "Ah, a shepherd!".  So while notes do indeed have no meaning beyond the tone indicated, and duration of it, we (our predecessors, I should say) have given them a meaning that has a universally shared symbolic association. You might be interested in this book:

which delves into that issue. I found it quite compelling.