What does Beethoven's 9th symphony mean to you?

[karlhenning]

Elgar's marches are awesome!

Rah-rah-rah! 

[Josquin des Prez]

Michel wasn't dismissing Beethoven's importance

But some people are. Infact, i see some who are dismissing Beethoven's altogether. Hard to maintain perspective in the face of this foul and evil avalanche of heresy... 

[Florestan]

So energetic music! Good listening in the morning to get energy level up!

Kind of aerobic gym, right?

[karlhenning]

But some people are. Infact, i see some who are dismissing Beethoven's altogether.

That's the revolutionary's risk; the wheel turns some more 

[Bunny]

And Bunny, nowhere did I "dismiss Beethoven's importance". I have not downplayed his achievements at all. Saying something is over-rated does not mean it is not great, especailly since, as I say, people make out that it is not only great, but the greatest. As a result, I still think it is relatviely speaking, over-rated.

Nice to see you going back to clarify your original post which only stated, "Over-played" and "Over-rated."   You have gone from an absolute condemnation to a qualified criticism.  I guess that's your way of saying that your original post was a bit OTT?  Anything that is rated as excellent or great can be said to be "relatively" over rated, especially when the rater is careful (or careless as the case may be) to give no context.  Beethoven is over-rated relative to what?  Mahler, Brahms, Wagner, Chopin, Schubert, Rimsky-Korsakoff, Rachmaninoff, Schoenberg, Stravinsky, Ives, Hummel, Martinu, Dvorak, Bach, Buxtehude, Pachelbel, et al.?  Or Beethoven is over-rated compared to Einstein, Turing, Pascal, Salk, Jenner, Fleming, Bohr, Lavoisier, Edison, Volta, Tesslar, et al.? 

The point is that I do not find that Beethoven is over-rated.  He is well understood and well appreciated and correctly rated as one of the great musical geniuses ever to live. His ninth symphony is recognized as one of the greatest works of one of the greatest composers, and this stands as an absolute which needs no qualifications.  The composers of the 19th century recognized this, and you do not; and that is not a straw argument, but a statement of fact. 

Does Beethoven have his insane groupies?  Yes, but no one should make judgments about the quality of his work because he inspires rabid fans.  The presence of groupies and cult devotees doesn't mean that the composer is over-rated.  It means that the music is accessible to many more people than the works of other composers -- and universality of art is usually a benchmark of greatness because it is that universality that keeps the music fresh and appealing down through the centuries. 

[karlhenning]

The point is that I do not find that Beethoven is over-rated.

So you think, for example, that the volume of new recordings generated every year of Betehoven's music is not at all disproportionate in comparison to other composers?

[Bunny]

Ah touche.

Wait! There's venom here, and I missed it? 

Beethoveenios

Rah-rah-rah! 

That's the revolutionary's risk; the wheel turns some more 

So you think, for example, that the volume of new recordings generated every year of Betehoven's music is not at all disproportionate in comparison to other composers?

No. 

[Bunny]

Karl, all those posts and nothing to say.

[karlhenning]

To you, perhaps.  Sorry.

[Michel]

Beethoven is over-rated relative to what?  Mahler, Brahms, Wagner, Chopin, Schubert, Rimsky-Korsakoff, Rachmaninoff, Schoenberg, Stravinsky, Ives, Hummel, Martinu, Dvorak, Bach, Buxtehude, Pachelbel, et al.?  Or Beethoven is over-rated compared to Einstein, Turing, Pascal, Salk, Jenner, Fleming, Bohr, Lavoisier, Edison, Volta, Tesslar, et al.?

The former group. A good example would be Brahms.

His ninth symphony is recognized as one of the greatest works of one of the greatest composers, and this stands as an absolute which needs no qualifications.

It is one of the greatest symphonic works, not greatest works. You are yet again showing your symphonic centricity.

...It means that the music is accessible to many more people than the works of other composers -- and universality of art is usually a benchmark of greatness because it is that universality that keeps the music fresh and appealing down through the centuries. 

If universality of art is a benchmark of greatness, shouldn't the Eagles be considered be better than Beethoven?

[karlhenning]

It's looking like 71 dB has Elgar, and Bunny has Beethoven, Michel.

[dtwilbanks]

It's looking like 71 dB has Elgar, and Bunny has Beethoven, Michel.

No, I have Beethoven as well. Wanna fight? 

[karlhenning]

No, I have Beethoven as well. Wanna fight? 

Me? The so-many-posts-so-little-to-stimulate-Bunny's-Beethoven-center guy? 

[dtwilbanks]

Me? The so-many-posts-so-little-to-stimulate-Bunny's-Beethoven-center guy? 

You can bash any composer. But when the bashing is over, Beethoven will be standing at the top of the heap, shaking his mighty fist at Michel and Karl.

I crack myself up.

[Edited for way bad grammar.]

[Don]

So you think, for example, that the volume of new recordings generated every year of Betehoven's music is not at all disproportionate in comparison to other composers?

I don't believe it is.  Beethoven is one of, if not the most popular classical composer.  So I would expect a very high rate of Beethoven releases.  Nothing strange here.

[71 dB]

It's looking like 71 dB has Elgar, and Bunny has Beethoven, Michel.

I am not a Beethoven ignorant. I value some of his works (String Quartets, Missa Solemnis,...) very high. He just isn't number one for me. He is number 10. That's not bad at all.

[Michel]

I don't believe it is.  Beethoven is one of, if not the most popular classical composer.  So I would expect a very high rate of Beethoven releases.  Nothing strange here.

I don't understand what you are saying here.  It is his very popularity that I am suggesting is what makes him over-rated; why does your comment negate it?

The key thing to note about Beethoven's popularity is that it is quite seperate from, for example, Puccini's; for people don't go about saying he is a genius on a level unmatched in history. I agree popularity itself doesn't equate to making something over-rated, but Beethoven's popularity does, for with it comes so-called objective arguments suggesting it is something profound and unique, whereas everyone admits they just like Puccini's tunz.

And that is the problem.

[Don]

It's looking like 71 dB has Elgar, and Bunny has Beethoven, Michel.

Each of us has favorites, and I don't think that Bunny shows the over-blown fervor for Beethoven that 71dB shows for Elgar - not even close.  

[dtwilbanks]

Each of us has favorites, and I don't think that Bunny shows the over-blown fervor for Beethoven that 71dB shows for Elgar - not even close. 

I like 71dB's overblown fervor. There should be more overblown fervor, I say.

[Florestan]

There should be more overblown fervor, I say.

Even when it's directed against Beethoven? (Not the case on this thread, mind you.)