What does Beethoven's 9th symphony mean to you?

[PerfectWagnerite]

Don said it. I've heard plenty of Dittersdorf, Pleyel, Cimarosa, Paisiello and other 2nd-raters from the Classical era. They're not even close to Mozart or Beethoven. If you want to discuss this subject in a musically intelligent way, I strongly suggest a reading of Edward Lowinsky's superb essay, "On Mozart's Rhythm," where he analyzes the styles of Dittersdorf and Mozart and demonstrates why Mozart is a far more imaginative, less predictable musical mind. It's not "provable" in the sense of a mathematical theorem but it is demonstrable according to such aesthetic criteria as originality, balance, flexibility, and so forth.

Occasionally you do find a neglected, less-known composer. From that era, I'll defend passionately the Symphony in D by Vorisek, and perhaps less passionately some of the work of JM Kraus. But overall the judgments of history - that is, the cumulative assessments of generations of composers, performers, listeners, and musicologists - are harder to deny than you "free-thinkers" seem to realize.

Of all the so-called obscure composers I have heard, Kraus is one I think had he lived another 20 years might be a composer as good as Haydn. His symphonies DO resemble those of early to middle Haydn. But since he died so early this is all speculative.

How does anyone knock Mozart anyway? So his early works probably aren't all masterpieces but the lad was in his teens ! Give him a break already. To suggest that Dittersdorf is even in the same stratosphere as Mozart is lunacy. The beginning of the development section of Mozart's K550 is without a doubt unprecedented in its dissonance and boldness. Now I forced myself to listen to all of the so-called Metamorphesis symphonies and there is NOTHING there that is even remarkable. Please tell me why these works are any better than the various hackjobs that Dittersdorf's contemporaries wrote

[Larry Rinkel]

Dittersdorf did enjoy very high esteem in his lifetime. Why? Perhaps because he was good? It's our ignorance he is ignored! I don't believe every note Mozart and Beethoven wrote are superior to those of Dittersdorf, Vanhal, Hofmann and others.

That is nonsense. I am specifically thinking of an F# written by Mozart than is considerably superior to an F# written by Vanhal.

[max]

Now I forced myself to listen to all of the so-called Metamorphesis symphonies and there is NOTHING there that is even remarkable. Please tell me why these works are any better than the various hackjobs that Dittersdorf's contemporaries wrote

After having listened to all the Haydn and Mozart symphonies more times than I can count, I never had to force myself to listen to Dittersdorf. He definitely had his own style and I find them quite remarkable. Admittedly the music is not as great as the more famous works of H & M but nevertheless find it equally entertaining. Neither Mozart or Haydn would have objected to their works described as entertaining especially Haydn.

These 1st tier composers had allot more respect for their 2nd tier cousins and sometimes almost considered them their equals. Haydn seemingly had as much respect for the works of JM Kraus as he did for Mozart himself and what I find really amazing is that Beethoven seems to have regarded Cherubini as a greater composer than Mozart. He certainly considered Cherubini's requiems in that light. Where is Cherubini now!

The point being, preferences are only that and nothing more but I would be more inclined to grant credibility to the opinions of those who ruled at THAT time than anybody writing on internet forums.

[Josquin des Prez]

Haydn seemingly had as much respect for the works of JM Kraus as he did for Mozart himself and what I find really amazing is that Beethoven seems to have regarded Cherubini as a greater composer than Mozart.

I read several biographies for each of those composers and i never even heard of those facts. Got any good source?

[AB68]

Beethoven was a great admirer of Cherubini, he once  said "If I was to compose a requiem, Cherubini would be my only model". The mass was also performed at Beethoven's funeral.

[max]

I don't and it's unlikely I would remember the exact sources since I don't specifically study the subject. But I do read all liner notes and some articles if not too long. The Haydn re. JM Kraus I got from one of these inserts of Kraus symphonies. I don't remember the quote word for word I only recall being amazed at the opinion he expressed of Kraus subsuming he would only praise Mozart in this manner.

As for Beethoven's high regard for Cherubini and Mehul, that's hardly a secret. What surprises me – and here I stand to be corrected – is that he seldom expressed any real appreciation for Mozart. But then the characters of the two were at opposite poles. Can't know for sure obviously, but maybe this nonchalance was more character related than music related.   

...also, from what I've read it was Mozart's requiem that was played at Beethoven's funeral but I'm sure he would have preferred Cherubini!

[AB68]

I am quite sure it was Cherubini's requiem that was played. I have read it several times in various articles. I think it was the one with male voices only.

[max]

I am quite sure it was Cherubini's requiem that was played. I have read it several times in various articles. I think it was the one with male voices only.

It's quite possible. One can't always depend on 'witnesses'. Certainly if Beethoven had announced any preference it would not have been Mozart's requiem.

[Bunny]

My view is that increased exposure to 2nd rate composers only confirms why they're 2nd rate.

Concur!

[Bunny]

I don't and it's unlikely I would remember the exact sources since I don't specifically study the subject. But I do read all liner notes and some articles if not too long. The Haydn re. JM Kraus I got from one of these inserts of Kraus symphonies. I don't remember the quote word for word I only recall being amazed at the opinion he expressed of Kraus subsuming he would only praise Mozart in this manner.

As for Beethoven's high regard for Cherubini and Mehul, that's hardly a secret. What surprises me – and here I stand to be corrected – is that he seldom expressed any real appreciation for Mozart. But then the characters of the two were at opposite poles. Can't know for sure obviously, but maybe this nonchalance was more character related than music related.   

...also, from what I've read it was Mozart's requiem that was played at Beethoven's funeral but I'm sure he would have preferred Cherubini!

Actually that doesn't surprise me at all.  When ever Baryshnikov was asked to name the dancer he most admired, he cited Fred Astaire, someone with whom he could not directly compete.  This is frequently the case with the most competitive creative personalities.  They profess to esteem most those whom they cannot themselves be directly compared with.  Mozart would have been a ghostly presence, the 900 lb. gorilla in the salon, for Beethoven whose childhood was spent touring as the "new Mozart."  And how should he have compared himself to Mozart?  Should he have said that he aspired to be as great?  His contemporaries rightly would have recognized that as false modesty.  He could not then say that he is as great or greater than Mozart because then he would be guilty of bragging and self-aggrandizement.  Hence, Beethoven said very little about the dead composer.  It is more telling that when he published his first pieces in Vienna, he refused to put down that he was the "pupil of Haydn" because he felt his music owed very little to Haydn.   By bringing Cherubini, Mehul and Clementi to the attention of his admirers as composers whom he admired, he demonstrated at once humility (if Beethoven could ever have been described as humble) and generousity to contemporaries (or near contemporaries) less celebrated than himself, while never looking like a lesser light in the process; a winning solution for him.

[max]

Bunny ~

This makes perfect sense. It was also Mozart that gave Vienna a bad conscience that Beethoven capitalized on.

[karlhenning]

If Beethoven was so great why did any composer bother compose any new music? Isn't it kind of useless? Beethoven already wrote unbeatable music!

And yet another strawman from Finland!

[Larry Rinkel]

I don't know where these "facts" are coming from that Beethoven seldom expressed appreciation for Mozart. Of the Mozart C minor piano concerto, for example, "there is the unsubstantiated report that Beethoven told his pupil Ries that he (Beethoven) would never be able to think of a melody as great as a certain one in the third movement" (from Wikipedia). But more than that, one of the Op. 18 quartets - no 3, IIRC, is modelled on one of Mozart's. The main theme of the slow movement of the Pathetique Sonata clearly recalls a passage from Mozart's C minor piano sonata. The canon in Act One of Fidelio is modelled on the one in the second finale of Cosi fan Tutte, though it is known Beethoven found the libretto to that opera frivolous and preferred The Magic Flute. And these are just a few examples off the top of my head. But even if we were to pore over all the known documentation concerning Beethoven's attitudes towards Mozart, there are undoubtedly sentiments he expressed that have not survived. What does seem true is that there was no personal tension between Beethoven and Mozart as there was between Beethoven and Haydn.

[Larry Rinkel]

The point being, preferences are only that and nothing more but I would be more inclined to grant credibility to the opinions of those who ruled at THAT time than anybody writing on internet forums.

That would depend considerably on who is writing on such forums, n'est-ce pas?

[71 dB]

That is nonsense. I am specifically thinking of an F# written by Mozart than is considerably superior to an F# written by Vanhal.

I can't believe this idiotism! How difficult is it understand that Dittersdorf, Vanhal, Hofmann and others were respected composers in their lifetime and unjustinly forgotten? Do you think the 18th century Vienese music life sucked so badly only Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven were able to compose good music? Dittersdorf was Haydn's most important competitor! He was elevated to noble rank!

[Larry Rinkel]

Dittersdorf was Haydn's most important competitor! He was elevated to noble rank!

And Beethoven wasn't! Next thing I know, you'll be telling me Elgar was made a knight!

I retire from this fray, bloodied and defeated!

[Michel]

This thread is turning nutty. Although maybe some will argue that I started it...

[Josquin des Prez]

As for Beethoven's high regard for Cherubini and Mehul, that's hardly a secret.

I know that, but you specifically said he regarded Cherubini higher then Mozart. That's a bit different..

and here I stand to be corrected – is that he seldom expressed any real appreciation for Mozart

Yet, Mozart's music exerted a colossal influence on Beethoven's work. Care to explain that one?

I don't and it's unlikely I would remember the exact sources since I don't specifically study the subject. But I do read all liner notes and some articles if not too long. The Haydn re. JM Kraus I got from one of these inserts of Kraus symphonies. I don't remember the quote word for word I only recall being amazed at the opinion he expressed of Kraus subsuming he would only praise Mozart in this manner.

"The symphony he wrote here in Vienna especially for me will be regarded as a masterpiece for centuries to come; believe me, there are few people who can compose something like that"

This is what Haydn said regarding Kraus's symphony in c minor. How did you jump from this, to claiming he considered him to be the equal of Mozart?

[karlhenning]

I can't believe this idiotism! How difficult is it understand that Dittersdorf, Vanhal, Hofmann and others were respected composers in their lifetime and unjustinly forgotten?

I can't believe this idiocy! How difficult is it to understand that no one contests that Dittersdorf, Vanhal, Hofmann, to say nothing of a hundred artistic mediocrities, were respected in their lifetime, but that the question of the justice of their obscurity is open to vigorous debate and opinion?

[Don]

I can't believe this idiotism! How difficult is it understand that Dittersdorf, Vanhal, Hofmann and others were respected composers in their lifetime and unjustinly forgotten?

They're not forgotten now, as you keep bringing their names up on this thread.