Rachmaninov or Rachmaninoff?

[BachQ]

That's really odd that the cemetery misspelled Rach's headstone ......... you'd think someone would have noticed .......

[DavidRoss]

[(poco) Sforzando]

Händel/Handel never became a British citizen.

Oh, really?

http://www.parliament.uk/parliamentary_publications_and_archives/parliamentary_archives/handel_and_naturalisation.cfm

[karlhenning]

Without materially affecting Sforz's point . . . in those days, Britons would have been subjects (of the monarch) rather than citizens (of a state).

[M forever]

Yes, really. Because he didn't become a British citizen, he became a subject of the English Crown. I don't think they had something like citizenship at that time.

Just wanted to be a smartass! Ha!



What does that mean: "The House was adjourned during Pleasure, to unrobe." Does that mean after the ceremony they all got naked together?

[(poco) Sforzando]

Yes, really. Because he didn't become a British citizen, he became a subject of the English Crown. I don't think they had something like citizenship at that time.

Just wanted to be a smartass! Ha!



What does that mean: "The House was adjourned during Pleasure, to unrobe." Does that mean after the ceremony they all got naked together?

Only the citizens did that.

[M forever]

It would actually be interesting to know more about how citizenship and stuff like that was defined and händled, I mean, handled at the time when most people probably didn't have papers and rarely traveled across borders anyway. Unless they were invited into the king's army to take part in invading some other king's territory when they obviously didn't need papers either.

[Brian]

As you probably know, the name is actually a first name although it is not so uncommon as a family name either.

This doesn't surprise me, though the only such name I know of is the rather obscure (perhaps deservedly) conductor Reinhard Seifried. And, yes, a couple of those spellings are clearly Anglicized; it particularly irritates me when the name is misspelled to include "Rhine", as if we are named after the river.

[PSmith08]

This doesn't surprise me, though the only such name I know of is the rather obscure (perhaps deservedly) conductor Reinhard Seifried. And, yes, a couple of those spellings are clearly Anglicized; it particularly irritates me when the name is misspelled to include "Rhine", as if we are named after the river.

There's at least one historical figure of whom I can think whose first name was Reinhard, though he is hardly an advertisement for naming one's child Reinhard.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

There's at least one historical figure of whom I can think whose first name was Reinhard, though he is hardly an advertisement for naming one's child Reinhard.

Exactly. And returning to things musical: the father of this infamous Reinhard Eugen Tristan * was a singer and composer, Bruno *...

[M forever]

Reinhart (or the short version Reiner) is not such a rare first name. Unlike a lot of other old German names which have gone out of fashion and now sound silly as a modern name (I have never met anyone named Siegfried or Brünhilde and it may be hard for people who don't speak German to understand why these and many other old German names would sound ridiculous in connection with a modern person, but they do) it is somehow still OK. I can think of quite a few guys I know with that name without thinking very hard.

[Brian]

Reinhart (or the short version Reiner) is not such a rare first name. Unlike a lot of other old German names which have gone out of fashion and now sound silly as a modern name (I have never met anyone named Siegfried or Brünhilde and it may be hard for people who don't speak German to understand why these and many other old German names would sound ridiculous in connection with a modern person, but they do) it is somehow still OK. I can think of quite a few guys I know with that name without thinking very hard.

Interesting, thanks.    Incidentally, I do know a fellow named Siegfried, and his family is not exactly German (they're from Peru). 

[Lilas Pastia]

In French and Italian (and maybe other latin-derived languages?) most ancient Greek names have a different spelling and pronunciation than in English (and presumably other anglo-saxon languages?).

For example: Ulysses, Hercules, Patrocles, Achilles, Oedipus: the 's' is omitted and the name ends with the final vowel. Which, in French, is usually mute, so the pronunciation is based on the penultimate consonant: Ulysse = Ülyss, Hercule = Hercül, Achille = Achill, Oedipe = Édip (but not Patrocle, where the full last syllable is pronounced). I added tremas (umlauts) to indicate how the u is pronounced, but it's written without.

The French have little regard for things such as transliteration. It's seen as a tool among others when it comes to adapting names originating from a different alphabet. Usage predominates, so you'll look in vain for names to reflect the logical spelling and pronunciation. Some names like Charles do end with es but are pronounced with just a mute e (Charl). In all logic they should also allow the es spelling for the Greek names, but no, they don't.

I guess local usage rules, even if it's against logic or usage in other cultures. Most geographical names have a different spelling depending on where you hear it. Although Belgium has three official languages, you will not find it written like that in any of them: it's België (Flemish), Belgique (French) and Belgien (German). And yet, it's known around the English speaking world as Belgium.

[Christo]

Anyhow, this thread is about Rachmaninov's habit of spelling his name in the French manner, so I'll leave it here ... 

And this is the reason I deleted a lot of previous posts which had nothing whatsoever to do with the subject of how to pronounce the name Rachmaninoff - whichever! - 

uffeviking

[Maciek]

This is entirely off topic, but hopefully it won't start a flame war...

It would actually be interesting to know more about how citizenship and stuff like that was defined and händled, I mean, handled at the time when most people probably didn't have papers and rarely traveled across borders anyway. Unless they were invited into the king's army to take part in invading some other king's territory when they obviously didn't need papers either.

In the 16th and 17th centuries you needed a "passport" to cross a border. Only, in those days a passport was something different: it was a permit from the authorities of the country you were entering. Sometimes, a second "passport" was needed - a permit to leave the country. So, basically, we're talking about "entry visas" and "exit visas". Apart from that, to enter certain Italian states you also needed a certificate from a doctor, attesting that you are healthy (or at least don't have anything contagious). Sometimes, a letter of recommendation from somebody important was also useful. Often, the customs officials were very susceptible to bribery - sometimes they were only susceptible to bribery, and on principle ignored all documents altogether.

I'm taking the info from Antoni Mączak's excellent Życie codzienne w podróżach po Europie w XVI i XVII wieku. Also available in English translation (Travel in Early Modern Europe):


It's a great read!

EDIT:
Ummm... Belatedly noticed the price tag. But hey! it comes with FREE Super Saver Shipping!

EDIT 2:
But thanks to the "Search Inside..." function you can actually get some idea of the book without buying it or even going to a library. A title it most reminds me of is probably Elias's History of Manners.

[Xenophanes]

I like my way better.

[Brian]

Slate.com has the answer!

Barachmaninoff (buh-rahkh-MAH-nuh-nawf) n. A celebrated Russian composer hired by Obama to pen expansive, masterful campaign songs.

Example: Although critically acclaimed, Barachmaninoff's first concerto struck many Americans as unnecessarily complex and inaccessible.

[I wonder how many GMGers consider the Rach "unnecessarily complex and inaccessible"...]

[Tapio Dmitriyevich]

And, yes, a couple of those spellings are clearly Anglicized

The (non english speaking) mob anglicizes and language is done by the mob (as it is the majority). It's that simple. Best regards to Woschinkten, Liwwerpuhl and Nujork! Like in the 19th century, when it was fashionable to have it all in french. Today it's a more worldwide phenomenon. For the case of germany I can say, it's a clear case of brownnosing. It's about telling the world how open and international we are.
BTW, speaking of New York, I think at post WW2 times they said "Neujork" here.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

New York is still simply Nieuw Amsterdam for me. 

[Christo]

New York is still simply Nieuw Amsterdam for me. 

Did anything happen to Nieuw Amsterdam?? Are those colonials calling it Nieuw Jork or Nieuw Kantelberg or so, nowadays? Who imagines changing Amsterdam for Jork?