An actual case of "Mystery Orchestra" (Beethoven's Third)

[Brian]

An "actual case" because this is not a game - I have a recording of Beethoven's Third Symphony, do not know the conductor or orchestra, and would like to know who they are.

It was posted a few months ago on RMCR as "DesertIslandEroica.mp3" with no further elaboration, and after several replies, the poster said he would email the artists' identities to those who commented. I couldn't (I stumbled on the post via a Google search) but have been listening to the performance and am exceedingly curious as to whose it is. It is a live performance, and these RMCR comments might be considered hints:

A review of this conductor's performance of Beethoven 2 (as a guest elsewhere) commented on the chamber-orchestra sized ensemble. However, some conductors like to reduce the orchestra for the first two symphonies then beef up for the 3rd. So, clearly this conductor may be using reduced forces in all the Beethoven symphonies...but maybe not. I just don't know.

I have a 6th with the same conductor (different orchestra) and again I did not note a reduction in size of the orchestra (nor did the reviews note anything about the number of players). I can't find the Beethoven 5 and 9 I have with this conductor.

I've had mixed success with this conductor in studio recordings, but very consistent satisfaction with the live broadcasts.

LINK TO THE DOWNLOAD. THIS IS THE COMPLETE SYMPHONY.

I'll be emailing the original poster in a couple days if nobody is interested in "playing" a very real game of "Name That Orchestra", or once we all get collectively stumped... [EDIT: IF I can find the original poster's email address, as in the RMCR archives it is xxx'd out]

[M forever]

"Mystery Orchestra" is still a trademarked name, so you better change the title - this time, I will actually activate my lawyers (my roommate is one to start with) and sue you for $5million if you don"t 

[Brian]

"Mystery Orchestra" is still a trademarked name, so you better change the title - this time, I will actually activate my lawyers (my roommate is one to start with) and sue you for $5million if you don"t 

You could make more money by licensing the name out to others for profit. Clearly it's a hot property. For what it's worth, next time I post a traditional round of the game [probably Dvorak's Eighth] I'll be calling it "The Blind Listening Game," which should meet corporate approval.

[Renfield]

The moment I heard the opening bars, it was Norrington who somehow sprung to mind, Brian.

It's certainly not his London Classical Players one (I checked), but I have an inkling it might be this one:




And superficially, through laptop "tin-speakers" to boot, they sound quite alike indeed. I'd rather not go through the entire Eroica right now, or put on my headphones, but do let us know which one it was: I'm curious as to who the Norrington sound-alike is.

(Or if I'm right, I'll be bewildered that I could guess the disc from 20 seconds of music through laptop speakers. But even before M comes in guns blazing, let me go on record in saying I don't expect that to be the case. )

[Brian]

I have an inkling it might be this one:

Negative. The first ten seconds or so of that recording are very distinctive - specifically the repeated notes the second violins play under the main theme - I'd recognize it anywhere. But it is rather Norrington's style - maybe a performance he did with a different orchestra? 

[Renfield]

Negative. The first ten seconds or so of that recording are very distinctive - specifically the repeated notes the second violins play under the main theme - I'd recognize it anywhere. But it is rather Norrington's style - maybe a performance he did with a different orchestra? 

Ah, see? Laptop speakers.

It could be Norrington with another ensemble. Or not.

[M forever]

The first ten seconds or so of that recording are very distinctive - specifically the repeated notes the second violins play under the main theme - I'd recognize it anywhere.

I think that's rather a daring statement. These repeated notes are simply not very well together at first but come together by ear. Which is kind of a Karajan thing and the orchestra has that mix of sonically expansive and at the same time very impulse driven playing that characterizes the BP under him, especially in the 60s. The very heavy basses point in that general direction, too, but the sound quality is not good enough (in fact, it is impossible to hear the actual timbre of the strings because of the muffled and reverberant recording) to pinpoint that and I am not sure if I find the woodwinds match that guess. I have to listen to it some more. For some reason, the woodwind sound makes me think more in the direction of the NYP, perhaps under a younger Bernstein who wasn't so far away esthetically in this kind of repertoire from Karajan at that time but it has been a long time since I last heard any of his Beethoven recordings from that period, so maybe my recollections are imprecise. But I may allow myself to be deceived by the sound quality as such since it is rather reminiscent of the kind of sound heard on CBS recordings from that area. Again, I have to listen to it some more.

For what it's worth, next time I post a traditional round of the game [probably Dvorak's Eighth] I'll be calling it "The Blind Listening Game," which should meet corporate approval.

If you do that, please chose a more interesting piece than that symphony which doesn't allow for so much variation in style and interpretation, and try to chose some samples with decent and representative sound quality. What copycats like you and Greta have so far always done wrong is that you chose just a few samples of whatever you have flying around. But a lot of recordings are rather generic in their interpretive profiles and also in the sound quality. Sometimes, it is very hard to identify the sound of an orchestra if it is recorded in a very general, glossy way, like so many modern recordings, or of it a mediocre live recording (or just mediocre sounding in general) and then it doesn't make sense to use that for a blind listening game. The reason "Mystery Orchestra" has always been way more successful than any of the imitations is that M has always selected the clips very well for maximum listening interest rather than just more or less randomly  

[paul]

I've never heard a beginning like that, but I checked this in iTunes and confirmed that it is not any of the following:

Andre Cluytens - Berliner Philharmoniker
Arturo Toscanini - NBC Symphony Orchestra (post-war)
Bernard Haitink - London Symphony Orchestra
Bruno Walter - Columbia Symphony Orchestra
Carl Schuricht - Berliner Philharmoniker
Christopher Hogwood - Academy of Ancient Music
Claudio Abbado - Wiener Philharmoniker
Eugen Jochum - Berliner Philharmoniker
Frans Bruggen - Orchestra of the 18th Century
Franz Konwitschny - Gewandhausorchester Leipzig
George Szell - Cleveland Orchestra
Gunter Wand - NDR-Sinfinieorchester (studio)
Herbert von Karajan - Berliner Philharmoniker, 80's cycle
Herbert von Karjaan - Berliner Philharmoniker, 60's cycle
Herbert von Karajan - Philharmonia Orchestra, 1952
John Eliot Gardiner, Orchestre Revolutionnaire et Romantique
Jordi Savall - Le Concert des Nations
Jos van Immerseel - Anima Eterna
Josef Krips - London Symphony Orchestra
Leonard Bernstein - New York Philharmonic
Leonard Bernstein - Wiener Philharmoniker
Nikolaus Harnoncourt - Chamber Orchestra of Europe
Osmo Vanska - Minnesota Orchestra
Rene Leibowitz - Royal Philharmonic Orchestra
Roger Norrington - London Classical Players
Simon Rattle - Wiener Philharmoniker
Takashi Asahina - Osaka Philharmonic Orchestra
Walter Weller - City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra
Willem Mengelberg - Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra

[M forever]

I listened to large portions of this very enthusiastic and sweeping, rather "grand" in sound, but still "classical" in proportions, performance of the Eroica in order to arrive at more precise judgment, but I find it nearly impossible with that sound quality. The 60s-ish sound may just be bad sound, who knows what the source is, and the fact that it reminds me of typical CBS stereo recordings from NY from the era and some other elements (such as the somewhat beepy oboe and the at times rather edgy playing of the strings, esp. the lower strings) may point somewhat in the direction of something that might be the NYP under Bernstein, but then there are other elements (the horn sound, for instance, which is too bright even in this sound) which do not fit this at all, and even though I haven't heard Bernstein's Beethoven from that period in a long time, I do remember it as a little slower and heavier, on the whole more "romantic", so while the overall sound picture immediately triggered this association, I am now dismissing it because I think it's probably not even a recording from the 60s, it's just a bad recording (or a bad source) so that can be enormpously misleading. I also find the clarinets interesting which appear to me to be French system but not played in a way which is really typical of French players or those from Anglo-Saxon countries. For this reason, for a moment I thought it could be the SOBR which used to have a Swiss solo clarinettist who played on the French system, but still with a rather German tone, but then the oboe sound doesn't fit with that orchestra at all. It kind of sound "between the worlds", too, a little puzzling...

The association with Karajan is still strong, or maybe again something that is triggered by the sound quality which seems to scream 60s and in that time frame, this kind of "big" orchestral sound in a fairly straightforward, "classicist" concept was very typical for Karajan and the BP and while some elements, like the very energic bass playing, fit that, some don't, again especially the brass which is too bright for this choice and at least part of the woodwind playing, too, although I can't place it.

This appears to me to be once again something somehow "middle European", but more towards the south than the north because of the more French influences in the playing than you would find in north and east Germany, but I can't narrow it down further. It is a pity because this is a musically interesting reading and it would be fun to try to "decode" the sound more precisely, but in that sound quality, it is simply not possible.

As far as the interpretation is concerned, well, like I said, this kind of approach is something which was very typical of Karajan who sought to combine the classicist proportions of Toscanini's approach with the lushness of sound and intensity of expression of Furtwängler's, but that still doesn't mean it has to be him and since he rarely ever appeared with any orchestras apart from the BP and WP from the 60s onward, and I don't think he performed the Eroica with any of the few that he still worked with (Cleveland and Dresden, for example) and also because the sound and style fits none of the above well, I don't think it's him.
I don't find any other really individual traits in the interpretation, so it could be dozens of candidates.

Like I said, it sounds like a 60s recording, and for that time, the orchestral playing is pretty outstanding, but it could just be a recording which "sounds old" and the very high level of playing in that case could be achieved by dozens of orchestras today, so the sound quality could be very misleading here.

But it's certainly not Sir Roger. It's lightyears away from his style, sorry...

It's not a "desert island" Eroica for me at all though. Good interpretation, clearheaded, enthusiastic, but not as structured and compelling as some of the best. Something that would be great in a live concert, but that IMO you don't really have to have for repeated listening in your collection.

[Holden]

My immediate impression was Leibowitz but a quick comparison eventualy dispelled that. Unlike M Forever, I like the 1st movement played this way. Toscanini and Leibowitz conducted it like this. I've heard many Eroicas and this is very good indeed. It's a live performance so that should narrow it down somewhat.

After hecking the Grunin Erioca site and using the timings it's got to be Vanska/Minnesota or Dohnanyi/Cleveland. Nothing else comes close.

The other strong possibilty based on the timing of the Scherzo is Gatti/RPO. This is my main choice.

However, my addition of analogue time may be askew so look here

http://www.grunin.com/eroica/?page=list.asp

[paul]

After hecking the Grunin Erioca site and using the timings it's got to be Vanska/Minnesota or Dohnanyi/Cleveland. Nothing else comes close.

http://www.grunin.com/eroica/?page=list.asp

It's not Vänskä / MO, which was recorded in either 2005 or 2006 and has much better sound quality. I've already checked this one against the Vänskä recording and it's not it.

[M forever]

Unlike M Forever, I like the 1st movement played this way.

M didn't say that.

After hecking the Grunin Erioca site and using the timings it's got to be Vanska/Minnesota or Dohnanyi/Cleveland. Nothing else comes close.
The other strong possibilty based on the timing of the Scherzo is Gatti/RPO. This is my main choice.

It can't be any of the above. Too much bass for any of these, no matter how it is recorded. The oboe, as hard as it is to classify, doesn't sound American at all (this is what struck me after my first impression that it might be a 60s CBS recording of the NYP, that it simply couldn't be that) which IMO rules out Cleveland and Minnesota. The idea of behind these games, BTW, is not to cheat by trying to compare timings, but simply to listen and analyze. But at least you admitted that you cheated.

[Renfield]

I'm tempted to actually play the game properly and have a close listen to (1) the entire symphony (versus the first and last 20 seconds), (2) on headphones.

Maybe I will, and report back. It's piqued my interest, for one.

[M forever]

In the meantime, I found out who is on the recording, so I can't play anymore... I won't say how close I was to the "truth" or not because that might influence other people. I would hope though that more will listen and post their comments. The same goes here that I keep saying in my (BTW, the one and only original!) "Mystery Orchestra": how come all those people who post very strong opinions all the time in many other threads don't show up here and post their strong opinions here?

[PerfectWagnerite]

I listenend to the first movement and the 1st few minutes of the 2nd (sorry Brian that's all the time I have between trying to debug my C code and trying to do a schematic at work). A live recording with the exposition repeat on modern instruments with pretty fleet tempo make it unlikely that it is an older recording ('60s or '70s). The woodwinds sound like something British - I only say that because a lot of recordings I have with American orchestras have rather breathy flutes and central European orchestras usually have flute sounds that are more "bell-like". The oboe has a rather wide vibrato which is not really the playing style of the Viennese and the timbre sounds a bit American so maybe this is an American orchestra. But American orchestras usually don't have the rather raspy and almost shrill horn sound. You know what the horns sound like - they sound a bit like natural horns. So maybe this is one of those performances where you use modern strings and woodwinds but with natural horns and/or trumpets.

Interpretation-wise there is nothing really good or bad about it. It is a bit slick and hard hitting for my taste, almost like a bull in a China shop let's play it fast but not quite as fast as Beethoven has indicated approach.

[scarpia]

Interest in discussing this seems to have dropped to zero.  Does anyone know who it is?

[M forever]

Surprising, isn't it, with all the loudmouthed megaexperts here who have the strongest opinions they are prepared to fight and die for - but only if they know who it is...experts in sound quality who hear the differences in recordings played back via spaceshuttle cable or via regular cable...people who discuss in endless threads which "the greatest ever" Beethoven recordings are...where are they all?

I found it in the meantime who it is, that's why I said I couldn't post anymore beyond what I had already said, but I can't reveal it either because it's not my game.

Where is your perceptive review?

[Lilas Pastia]

Please hold it a bit longer !

Just read that thread and downloaded the thing. As soon as Brian's scherzo of the Gothic is over I'll listen to it. I don't expect to find answers, but a goodish Eroica is never to be sniffed at. I'll report later tonight   .

[Lilas Pastia]

Okay, I've listened to it once. Unfortunately it's a single file, making it difficult to go back and sample, say, the oboe solo near the start of II, or the horn in abisso right after the opening ritornello of IV (after the triple chord bam-bam-bam). But I found this an unusually satisfying reading. It is of a piece, it has a distinct point of view, the orchestra plays quite spectacularly (strings esp.) and the tempo relationships seem extremely well judged (this is one area in which interpretative decisions can go badly awry).

Some general observations: like the others here I found (or think I did) some signposts that point to a particular style of playing (if not a particular orchestra). However, I've heard many orchestras sound totally different under particular conductors (like the Concertgebouw under Harnoncourt or the WP under Abbado or Carlos Kleiber for example) and I could be fooled into thinking in a totally inappropriate direction. Sonically, I was startled by the surprisingly long reverberation, something I don't associate with any well known concert venue, except maybe Boston's Symphony Hall or the Prague Rudolfinum. I've compared with a few COA and WP recordings and although they're among the more reverberant halls, it's still not on that unusual level. On that point alone I'm rather mystified.

Then there's the orchestral playing. Very good string section, playing together with much corporate heft (violins on the left); that excludes 'chamber orchestras' and I'd think of this as one of the major european bands. European because the winds sound neither american nor english to my ears (flute and oboe especially). OTOH, the opening chords have a pistol shot character (trumpets and drums with slashing strings) that make me think it can't be a european orchestra: I always hear them playing those downbeats on the strings with trumpets and timpani italicizing the chord - not the other way around. Trumpets dominate the horns, which could be the conductor's balances, but more likely their own particularly penetrating tone. I've compared with the Hamburg Philharmonic (Keilberth), and a really strong horn section makes for totally different  balances, as at the beginning of IV for example.

The saturnine buzz on the low horn notes I've referred to (beginning of IV) really made me sit up and take notice. I compared this with a dozen recordings, and haven't come up with a clear answer. The closest approximation was the WP, most particularly the EMI Furtwängler (!!). Other than that, only Savall makes this effect so clearly heard. Another startling effect was the hair raising double basses entry in the Marcia funebre.

On the basis of what I've heard (once ) I could imagine this being the Czech Philharmonic (with a different oboist than the von Matacic I listened to) in the Rudolphinum. It could be under Szell, or it could also be Szell with the SD (Salzburg?). But some details rule this out:  AFAIK Szell never did the Eroica with the first movement repeat. Other possibilities: Kleiber, Abbado or Solti in Vienna (but normally the WP's horns are stronger), or  Leinsdorf in Boston (strictly based on the sound - hall and orchestra).  Since I never heard any of Leinsdorf's Beethoven, that too is a very long shot. But I think he did that first movement repeat (as well as Abbado and Solti). Karajan never did it, and the strings do not sound like the BP at all.

[PerfectWagnerite]

I'd rule out the Vienna Philharmonic based on the oboe alone. The Viennese oboe sounds a bit more nasal. I also don't think it is a British orchestra based on the oboe playing. Most of the recordings I have with the Philharmonia and other British bands like the LPO feature a pretty reedy and piercing style of oboe playing. The big fat oboe sound almost points to an American orchestra, but the rock solid basses point to a more Eastern European orchestra like Leipzig.