The Evidence Of The Hardcore Wagnerian

[Operahaven]

In my opinion the true hardcore Wagnerian listens to Wagner's music dramas merely as absolute music - tissues of instrumental and vocal sound - and derives intense aesthetic pleasure from the ceaseless glow and richness of the musical/vocal fabric.

One could go further and assert that we love and are more sensitive towards these masterpieces since we don't need the "props" of the libretto, staging and acting.

And I'm not just talking about the bleeding chunks and famous 'highlights' from  Tristan , Meistersinger , The Ring  and  Parsifal.

There is a test:

If he or she loves  Siegfried  (all 240 minutes) as much as the other operas and prefers to listen to it on CD....

Someone who adores the raspy voice of the Mime, Siegfried, The Wanderer, Erda and so on....

That, ladies and gentleman, is a hardcore Wagnerian.

[DavidRoss]

[PSmith08]

So the hardcore Wagnerite, who should, by all rights, be most familiar with Wagner's dramatic and musical theories, shows his true colors by ignoring a fair-sized chunk of those same dramatic and musical theories? The true devotee, then, ignores everything about that to which he is devoted except the parts he finds most agreeable. In other words, the true lover of art bends the art to his will, that its appreciation might be made all the more facile by the breaking down of its own structure.

Next thing I know, you'll be accusing Wagner of sinking down before the Christian cross with his Parsifal.

I'll give you this much, Eric, you're never wanting for inventiveness in your notions.

[Don]

In my opinion the true hardcore Wagnerian listens to Wagner's music dramas merely as absolute music - tissues of instrumental and vocal sound - and derives intense aesthetic pleasure from the ceaseless glow and richness of the musical/vocal fabric.

One could go further and assert that we love and are more sensitive towards these masterpieces since we don't need the "props" of the libretto, staging and acting.

And I'm not just talking about the bleeding chunks and famous 'highlights' from  Tristan , Meistersinger , The Ring  and  Parsifal.

There is a test:

If he or she loves  Siegfried  (all 240 minutes) as much as the other operas and prefers to listen to it on CD....

Someone who adores the raspy voice of the Mime, Siegfried, The Wanderer, Erda and so on....

That, ladies and gentleman, is a hardcore Wagnerian.

You're talking about a superficial Wagnerian.  Can't you tell the difference?

[PSmith08]

You're talking about a superficial Wagnerian.  Can't you tell the difference?

Do you even have to ask?

[val]

Operahaven

In my opinion the true hardcore Wagnerian listens to Wagner's music dramas merely as absolute music - tissues of instrumental and vocal sound - and derives intense aesthetic pleasure from the ceaseless glow and richness of the musical/vocal fabric.

I don't consider myself as a "true hardcore Wagnerian". Just a person who deeply loves most of Wagner's operas. And no, it is not only a matter of sound. Wagner's operas are OPERAS, real operas. With a rich orchestral part but also requiring glorious voices with a good diction in order to make the text understandable.

There is a test:

If he or she loves  Siegfried  (all 240 minutes) as much as the other operas and prefers to listen to it on CD....

Someone who adores the raspy voice of the Mime, Siegfried, The Wanderer, Erda and so on....

That, ladies and gentleman, is a hardcore Wagnerian.

I prefer to listen those operas on CD, the same way I prefer to listen to Don Giovanni or Fidelio on CD. I can't stand the way that most operas are put on scene today.
The "raspy voice" of Mime is necessary according to the character and the action. About Siegfried and the Wanderer: try to listen to Max Lorenz singing Siegfried and Friedrich Schorr singing Wotan and you will discover beautiful voices singing - not bawling - beautiful music.

[marvinbrown]

In my opinion the true hardcore Wagnerian listens to Wagner's music dramas merely as absolute music - tissues of instrumental and vocal sound - and derives intense aesthetic pleasure from the ceaseless glow and richness of the musical/vocal fabric.


There is a test:

If he or she loves  Siegfried  (all 240 minutes) as much as the other operas and prefers to listen to it on CD....

  That's me!  Siegfried is my favorite opera in the Ring...never a dull moment  0:), pure German power!

  marvin

[Operahaven]

You're talking about a superficial Wagnerian.  Can't you tell the difference?

What are you talking about ?

Wagner has always been at the center of my musical universe since I was 16.

(And you are not a Wagner enthusiast anyway) 

[Operahaven]

Why are you laughing ?

[Operahaven]

Val and Patrick,

I still disagree.

The music is always the paramount definer, shaper, and transmitter of the drama.

[DavidRoss]

You're talking about a superficial Wagnerian.  Can't you tell the difference?

Don, meet Eric, aka "Pink Harp"

[karlhenning]

Why are you laughing ?

At the comedy, principally.

[(poco) Sforzando]

The music is always the paramount definer, shaper, and transmitter of the drama.

One could go further and assert that we love and are more sensitive towards these masterpieces since we don't need the "props" of the libretto, staging and acting.

Do you see how these statements are mutually inconsistent?

If the libretto, etc. is merely a "prop," why did Wagner invest so much time and energy into writing his own libretti? Why was he at such pains to coin the terms "music drama" and "Gesamtkunstwerk"? Why did he write theoretical treatises such as "Opera and Drama"? What purpose if any do you see for the libretto, staging, and acting?

[karlhenning]

Wagner's operas are OPERAS, real operas. With a rich orchestral part but also requiring glorious voices with a good diction in order to make the text understandable.

Beg pardon, but I don't see how Wagner's operas are at all distinct in requiring good enunciation.

BTW, thank you for calling them operas.  They are that (they're certainly not chamber music, or Lieder, or symphonies).

Do you see how these statements are mutually inconsistent?

Sforz, meet Eric, quite possibly the most frankly and obliviously inconsistent discusser of music on the planet.

[(poco) Sforzando]

BTW, thank you for calling them operas.  They are that (they're certainly not chamber music, or Lieder, or symphonies).

Or for that matter "music dramas," a term that I regard as a smokescreen on Wagner's part. Wagner's works are not the only operas that achieve drama by means of music, either before or since his time.

[karlhenning]

Or for that matter "music dramas," a term that I regard as a smokescreen on Wagner's part. Wagner's works are not the only operas that achieve drama by means of music, either before or since his time.

Much agree.  The man was a propagandist almost before he was an artist.  A century past his death, to insist on calling them "music dramas" strikes me as next-door to a fetish.

[Operahaven]

Sforzando,

What purpose if any do you see for the libretto, staging, and acting?

None really.

I understand the goals Wagner had but would you agree that musical compositions lack a specific, agreed upon reference to the contents of the world ?

Yes, of course... And opera is no different because opera is  defined  by music.

When we engage with these works we bring our own life situations to it and make of music what we will... Music  idealizes  our emotions (positive and negative) and by doing so it momentarily perfects our individual emotional lives.

[(poco) Sforzando]

None really.

I understand the goals Wagner had

How can you understand Wagner's goals if you say his texts had no purpose?

[Operahaven]

How can you understand Wagner's goals if you say his texts had no purpose?

What I'm saying is that his texts are trivial compared to his transcendent musical genius.

[karlhenning]

What I'm saying is that his texts are trivial compared to his transcendent musical genius.

Which most sentient beings would consider something other than "no purpose."  See:

. . . quite possibly the most frankly and obliviously inconsistent discusser of music on the planet.