The Evidence Of The Hardcore Wagnerian

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

And even that is not always a fault.  One of my favorite (literary) authors is William Morris (also inventor of the Morris chair), who in three great fantasy novels used a positively Medieval English that had next to no relation to current parlance of the 1890s when he wrote them.  Consider also (brace yourselves!) Tolkien's rather archaic language in The Lord of the Rings.

I have read The Wood beyond the World and The Water of the Wondrous Isles and I admire Tolkien. So - my remark ('intentionally archaic') was just a statement of fact. 

[karlhenning]

And yet you, MnDave, and Karl (to a lesser extent) basically agree with Eric...that the words are unimportant.

Not a whit, Sarge.  The words, unimportant?  He wouldn't have written the music, unless he had written the words.  They are of crucial, formative importance; they're just of questionable literary merit.

[DavidRoss]

I have read The Wood beyond the World and The Water of the Wondrous Isles and I admire Tolkien. So - my remark ('intentionally archaic') was just a statement of fact. 

Of course--I doubt anyone would have imputed any judgment to the statement.

[karlhenning]

The question of the literary quality of the intentional archaism remains 

[Sergeant Rock]

The question of the literary quality of the intentional archaism remains 

How many librettos can stand up as serious literature? Not many, not even Da Ponte. (Does anyone actually read them divorced from the music?) We judge both the words and music of an opera by how well they relate, and if they convey the characters adequately. We aren't talking undying literature here, divorced from the music (there are damn few librettos that have that stand alone quality). If Wagner's words and drama were without merit, the operas would have died long ago. If Wagner had been a bad or even mediocre librettist, his work would have died long ago (look what happened to poor Schubert: glorious music brought down by seriously bad librettos). I submit that no one today would sit though five hours of Wagner if the text had no serious merit. But try to get a ticket to Bayreuth...or try to get a ticket to any Ring produced anywhere in the world. You better be quick.

Not a whit, Sarge.  The words, unimportant?  He wouldn't have written the music, unless he had written the words.  They are of crucial, formative importance; they're just of questionable literary merit.

I stand corrected twice. My apologies gentlemen.

But we do differ on the merit of the words. I agree with everything Jezetha wrote. Serious negative criticism of Wagner's words have been countered by other Wagner scholars...to my satisfaction anyway. That doesn't mean I don't get a little antsy too sometimes. King Mark's long...LONG...speech after he discovers T & I in flagrante delicto just seems to go on and on, with too many words, too little action. If Verdi had written that scene, Marco would have yelled, Bastardo! Vendetta! and leaped on Tristano with sword drawn. The act would have been over in ten seconds   Wagner drags it out for ten minutes. But Wagner has a purpose: to show us how deeply, emotionally and psychologically, Mark's been hurt, and why he feels that way. Dramatically ineffective? Maybe. But we gain something: a true understanding of Mark's character. To me that's worth the extra time spent before swords are drawn and the act ends. And it is, I think, a mark of Wagner's genius. It's one reason why his operas should be called music dramas...to set them apart from the mediocre and downright bad librettos of so much French and Italian opera of the time with their one-dimensional cardboard characters.

Sorry for the sermon (sometimes the preacher does still emerge  ). I'll step down from the pulpit now.

Sarge

[(poco) Sforzando]

King Mark's long...LONG...speech after he discovers T & I in flagrante delicto just seems to go on and on, with too many words, too little action.

But I think the real problem with that speech is that musically it fails to rise to the occasion (if you'll forgive the eructile pun).

[Sergeant Rock]

But I think the real problem with that speech is that musically it fails to rise to the occasion (if you'll forgive the eructile pun).

I agree with you. That's the real reason I get antsy: boring music at that point.

Sarge

[DavidRoss]

But I think the real problem with that speech is that musically it fails to rise to the occasion (if you'll forgive the eructile pun).

Unforgiveable in hardcore.

[Sergeant Rock]

Unforgiveable in hardcore.

That gave me a hardcore laugh, David. Thanks. 

Off to cook Mrs. Rock a hardcore dinner now.

See ya all later

Sarge

[Operahaven]

If Wagner's words and drama were without merit, the operas would have died long ago. If Wagner had been a bad or even mediocre librettist, his work would have died long ago.

I submit that no one today would sit though five hours of Wagner if the text had no serious merit.

What on earth are you saying here ?

My friend, what have you been smoking today ?

[jochanaan]

I have read The Wood beyond the World and The Water of the Wondrous Isles and I admire Tolkien. So - my remark ('intentionally archaic') was just a statement of fact. 

Of course--I doubt anyone would have imputed any judgment to the statement.

I certainly didn't.  My remarks were aimed at others--not necessarily the thread originator, but anyone who may be lurking and wondering what to make of all this.

[jochanaan]

What on earth are you saying here ?...

What the rest of us have been saying all along: That Wagner's music, at least the music in his music dramas, cannot be divorced from the drama without doing serious damage to the complete art work.  Granted, it's not a crime to enjoy Wagner's music while ignoring the words, as you do; but the claim that you understand Wagner at any deep level while ignoring his words is an empty one.

[scarpia]

How many librettos can stand up as serious literature? Not many, not even Da Ponte. (Does anyone actually read them divorced from the music?) We judge both the words and music of an opera by how well they relate, and if they convey the characters adequately. We aren't talking undying literature here, divorced from the music (there are damn few librettos that have that stand alone quality). If Wagner's words and drama were without merit, the operas would have died long ago. If Wagner had been a bad or even mediocre librettist, his work would have died long ago (look what happened to poor Schubert: glorious music brought down by seriously bad librettos). I submit that no one today would sit though five hours of Wagner if the text had no serious merit. But try to get a ticket to Bayreuth...or try to get a ticket to any Ring produced anywhere in the world. You better be quick.

The music and the story must have a consistent emotional logic.  Wagner's work satisfies that at some level, although weakness in the drama sometimes sabotages the music.  In my opinion,  Wagner's work could have been more successful if he had used someone to shape the words and drama into something more worthy of the music.  The main problem I have is over-long monologues and dramatically redundant scenes which leads to tedious and dramatically redundant music.

[DavidRoss]

The music and the story must have a consistent emotional logic.  Wagner's work satisfies that at some level, although weakness in the drama sometimes sabotages the music.  In my opinion,  Wagner's work could have been more successful if he had used someone to shape the words and drama into something more worthy of the music.  The main problem I have is over-long monologues and dramatically redundant scenes which leads to tedious and dramatically redundant music.

I knew if we kept at it long enough we'd finally find something on which we agree wholeheartedly. 

[M forever]

The music and the story must have a consistent emotional logic.  Wagner's work satisfies that at some level, although weakness in the drama sometimes sabotages the music.  In my opinion,  Wagner's work could have been more successful if he had used someone to shape the words and drama into something more worthy of the music.  The main problem I have is over-long monologues and dramatically redundant scenes which leads to tedious and dramatically redundant music.

You should prepare new, improved editions of his operas then! Just cut and abridge the dramatically redundant music, and rewrite the texts so they are more worthy of the music. Since you already know exactly what is wrong with the texts and the music, that shouldn't be too much work. Oh, wait, you would have to learn German on a literature level first in order to actually fully understand and rewrite/improve the texts. So I guess we can look forward to your improved versions in around, let's say, 10-12 years or so?

[scarpia]

You should prepare new, improved editions of his operas then! Just cut and abridge the dramatically redundant music, and rewrite the texts so they are more worthy of the music. Since you already know exactly what is wrong with the texts and the music, that shouldn't be too much work. Oh, wait, you would have to learn German on a literature level first in order to actually fully understand and rewrite/improve the texts. So I guess we can look forward to your improved versions in around, let's say, 10-12 years or so?

Ad hoc abridgement can be attained using the "skip track" function.  I certainly have my notions as to what parts seem to drag, be obviously we won't know what Wagner would have produced if he had been working for an impresario who gave him to directive to "keep things moving."

[marvinbrown]

What's this I am reading, Wagner's operas are too verbose, too long, in need of editing ?  The way I see it those operas aren't long enough- I want more, more Wagner, longer operas, more Wotan monologues , more King Mark monologues , more Siegfried monologues- MORE, MORE, MORE!!!!!! I WANT MORE!!!!

Verbose enough for you ??

  marvin

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

What's this I am reading, Wagner's operas are too verbose?  The way I see it those operas aren't long enough- I want more, more Wagner, longer operas, more Wotan, more King Mark, more Siegfried etc. monlogues- MORE, MORE, MORE!!!!!! I WANT MORE!!!!

Verbose enough for you  ??

Point taken.

[PSmith08]

What's this I am reading, Wagner's operas are too verbose, too long, in need of editing ?  The way I see it those operas aren't long enough- I want more, more Wagner, longer operas, more Wotan monologues , more King Mark monologues , more Siegfried monologues- MORE, MORE, MORE!!!!!! I WANT MORE!!!!

Verbose enough for you ??

  marvin

More Siegfried?

Talk about fates worse than death.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

More Siegfried?

Talk about fates worse than death.

Well, the funny thing is - and here I can understand Marvin - once you know the Wagner operas very well, they can seem quite short...