Pianists

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Yeah, I am one of those next guys too...sometimes it is just so satisfying to be savage and direct...but then the blood calms and the aftermath is not so great. That was a really positive exchange on the other thread. Sets me up for breakfast.

Mike

Mike,

It would be nice if we could some day turn the argument concept on its ear...considering the aftermath BEFORE we even open our knee-jerk mouths.

Although I await some guidance on just how to accomplish this...

[ezodisy]

But you're no saint either, Tony. You grandstand with the best of them. That's really what I'm driving at.

To illustrate my point there's the "Richter felt more comfortable in the east" thing. This is one of your pet ideas and granted is interesting to mull over and kick around with 'the gang' but really isn't borne out by anything empirical. IOW, it's campfire material that's little more than breezy, makeweight banter.

But that would be different if you could offer anything material to bolster such a stance. Then there would be no choice but to consider your theory and judge it accordingly.

But in the past when I've pressed you on the issue I get nothing that resembles "careful study" (time and attention, as you put it). At most I get comments that amount to "I'm able to pick it out by my superior skills of discernment" and such. And when further pressed on the issue things get even more fuzzy. In all our Richter east/west discussions you haven't offered one tangible bit of evidence to bolster such a claim. There's certainly nothing in the literature that overwhelmingly points to this. I should know, I've spent lots of time (years) reading about Richter. Which ticks me off even more since you've obviously read VERY little about the man. No one who's spent dedicated time actually studying the literature about Richter would come to your conclusion. NO ONE!

And that's the rub.

You then come onto this thread and take others to task when in reality it's your own storehouse that could use some tidying up.

Like I said, fireside chatting about the Richter/comfort issue is one thing (and fun ), but erudite discussion - which is how you frequently position yourself, I hasten to add - is quite another.

Anyway, to put some closure on this fine point about Richter's sympathies, here are a few snippets from Monsaingeon's Conversations and Notebooks that should effectively put the issue to bed:

In Richter's own words:

"I've never felt any difference between concerts in Russia and concerts abroad...[snip] I'm interested in everything new and, to tell the truth, I'd much rather have got to know the whole world than have to visit the same place twice." [p.95]

"Prague was the first foreign city I visited, in 1950. It remains one of my favourite cities, along with Venice, Paris and Vienna." [p.96]

"For years, the Fêtes Musicales de Touraine [his festival near Tours, France] were one of the greatest delights of my life. While touring France in the early sixties, I took time off to explore the Touraine and see for myself its famous châteaux. I was so attracted by them that I immediately thought of organizing concerts there. But their poor acoustics and the size of the rooms that were shown to me made this dream impossible, at least until the architect Pierre Boille told me about a thirteenth-century barn that seemed to meet my criteria, the Grange de Meslay. When I went there, it was full of hay and hens were running around everywhere, but I fell in love with it there and then. I asked for the necessary acoustic changes to be made, and we set to work. I'd imagined the Fêtes Musicales as a real celebration, in which music would be central to other delights and everyone would have time to meet everyone else, an idea that reflects the lightness of the place and of the air. [snip] I'm not always sure that the locals were aware of the quality of the programmes on offer, but the Fêtes Musicales were soon being talked about not just in France but elsewhere, too, and even as far afield as Russia." [p.151]

Pretty cool about the hens bit, huh?

So there it is. In general the above is the overriding theme of the book - that of an artist with a voracious appetite seeking sustenance in whatever province caught his fancy. East or west holding zero relevance...

jesus what a waste of time. I was wondering -- why did he even bring up the subject again? Obviously you are still smarting from it, which is a shame, as you seem unable to take another informed opinion on board next to your own. You should know that there are just as many quotes to refute what you've used, and you should also know that I know more than a couple of people, at least as well informed as you, who have the exact same opinion as me. You are really looking for an argument, which is rather funny as there's positively no way of convincing you as you yourself have implied above. Anyway, keep thinking that. Unlike you I really don't care if another internet user draws a different opinion from mine after a lot of listening (and reading).

[ezodisy]

"Prague was the first foreign city I visited, in 1950. It remains one of my favourite cities, along with Venice, Paris and Vienna." [p.96]

One thing I will say is that you cannot suddenly start to use Prague in your argument. You and I always argued about west/east and I always subsumed Prague with the eastern bloc. Back on your side, General!!!!

[Maciek]

"Prague was the first foreign city I visited, in 1950. It remains one of my favourite cities, along with Venice, Paris and Vienna." [p.96]

One thing I will say is that you cannot suddenly start to use Prague in your argument. You and I always argued about west/east and I always subsumed Prague with the eastern bloc. Back on your side, General!!!!

Not that I want to barge in (no vested interests here - in fact, I haven't got a formed opinion on the matter) but the quote does mention three other cities as well. 0:)

[Dancing Divertimentian]

jesus what a waste of time. I was wondering -- why did he even bring up the subject again? Obviously you are still smarting from it, which is a shame, as you seem unable to take another informed opinion on board next to your own. You should know that there are just as many quotes to refute what you've used, and you should also know that I know more than a couple of people, at least as well informed as you, who have the exact same opinion as me. You are really looking for an argument, which is rather funny as there's positively no way of convincing you as you yourself have implied above. Anyway, keep thinking that. Unlike you I really don't care if another internet user draws a different opinion from mine after a lot of listening (and reading).

You're wondering why I brought up the subject again? I've already told you why. Honestly, after all the time we've spent with our on again/off again internet relationship I'd think you'd have learned something about me by now.

In the first place, I have no real interest in being right. I've reiterated this time and again to you as far as the Richter thing. But you don't seem to remember. Ditto other issues we've 'disagreed' on. I only seek balance, backed by informed opinion.

The Richter thing is your approach to argumentation in miniature. It's frequently your ego versus the facts. But that kind of thing won't fly. So it's not about me being right, per se, but about you being unwilling to look at the facts objectively.

Anyway, as you say, it's probably a waste of time for me to bother with all this again...

[Dancing Divertimentian]

One thing I will say is that you cannot suddenly start to use Prague in your argument. You and I always argued about west/east and I always subsumed Prague with the eastern bloc. Back on your side, General!!!!

You're flinging ego again instead of taking the time to understand what that quote was about.

See the problem, here?

[ezodisy]

It's frequently your ego versus the facts.

I suspect you haven't noticed how ironic it is that you are doing to me exactly what you accused me of doing to Richter (prior to which I accused George of doing to Michelangeli). Stop taking yourself so seriously, Don.

Anyway, as you say, it's probably a waste of time for me to bother with all this again...

There was no reason at all to bring it up but I see you just couldn't resist flogging a dead horse once again. I hope you're not one of those people that refuses to believe someone in something until that person provides proof of it. Those people are always the easiest to deceive, and are rather sad too.

Not that I want to barge in (no vested interests here - in fact, I haven't got a formed opinion on the matter) but the quote does mention three other cities as well.

It's good you cleared that up Maciek. Being an ignorant, uncouth Englishman who had the misfortune of growing up in the states, I probably would have taken those other three cities for countries if it weren't for you.

[jochanaan]

It's official: I have lost interest in this thread.

[mn dave]

It's official: I have lost interest in this thread.

What thread? 

[Drasko]

What thread? 

Don't really think donwyn and sidoze keep count how many threads they offed with their 'Where Richter Was More Comfortable' routine [thought for about a second to call it a running gag, but gags usually tend to be funny].

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Stop taking yourself so seriously, Don.

Oh, I'll try, Tony...think you can do the same?

There was no reason at all to bring it up but I see you just couldn't resist flogging a dead horse once again. I hope you're not one of those people that refuses to believe someone in something until that person provides proof of it. Those people are always the easiest to deceive, and are rather sad too.

Sigh...

I wasn't flogging a dead horse. I ONLY brought it up again to illustrate for you your hypocrisy in attacking George...

It's good you cleared that up Maciek. Being an ignorant, uncouth Englishman who had the misfortune of growing up in the states, I probably would have taken those other three cities for countries if it weren't for you.

I for one am glad he cleared it up. Because it obviously went over your head...

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Don't really think donwyn and sidoze keep count how many threads they offed with their 'Where Richter Was More Comfortable' routine [thought for about a second to call it a running gag, but gags usually tend to be funny].

Hey, once a year isn't that bad...

[knight66]

I wonder if our two gladiators would agree to a breather? Perhaps some on-topic posts would be good interval entertainment. Sorry I can't help in that way, all I can do here is point out the benches and supply some cooling water.

Knight

[ezodisy]

I ONLY brought it up again to illustrate for you your hypocrisy in attacking George...

I don't see it that way. George was saying something that could be inferred from Michelangeli's habits and actions. I am saying something that Richter himself said. One of the great things about Richter was that he was not the type of man to say one thing and then stick to it. He could say the opposite, or something very different, or contradict himself in some self-deprecating way. The quotes swing both ways.

There is one thing in your argument that really surprises me though -- that you think, and seem to really believe, that "NO ONE" could come to the conclusion I have. Surely you have lived long enough to know that people can come to any conclusion they prefer. Whether that conclusion is based on the same evidence, or partial evidence, on quotes or on actions or on hearsay it really doesn't matter. It is just plain ignorance to think that one conclusion is impossible -- in fact I would have thought that your conclusion of "NO ONE" would have been impossible for someone who lives in such a freakishly varied country as the US, which I lived in too. Just as there are people who actually dislike Richter's playing (surely "NO ONE" could dislike him?), there are also those who have a different opinion about him. I guess it is this "NO ONE" nonsense which keeps you waiting for the right moment to pounce with the topic again. Give it a rest, please.

I wonder if our two gladiators would agree to a breather?

Does it look like I really care about this at all? Not one bit. I am much more interested in the psychology of a poster who has to keep bringing it up than I am in the topic itself.

[knight66]

In which case move it behind the scenes; as it is not relevent to the topic.

Knight

[ezodisy]

This is hardly a topic though. It only became interesting once George started to say all sorts of strange and funny things, things about Michelangeli. Don and I are saying strange and funny things about Richter, one of the topic pianists, hence....

[knight66]

Well it is coming across not so much as a discussion on Richter, but some deconstruction of one another's attitudes. You have just told me that it is not the topic itself that interests you. Richter, fine, but the arguing would be better conducted in private, and cannot be justified as belonging on the Music part of the board.

Mike

[ezodisy]

You have just told me that it is not the topic itself that interests you.

Right. I'm all Richtered out. I leave the last word to you Don. Back to the Pakistani mangoes and French films for me.

[knight66]

Thank you...I think there was only one poster here who could manage an argument all on his own, S_ul.

Mike

[DavidRoss]

Right. I'm all Richtered out. I leave the last word to you Don. Back to the Pakistani mangoes and French films for me.

Pakistani mangoes suck--stick with ones from the PI.  And French films are for deprecating epithet stricken for potential offensiveness to snail-eaters who are light in the loafers.  Real men watch obscure movies shot in grainy black & white made by pretentious directors with spiritual and intellectual depths that can be appreciated only by college sophomores.

Note for the sake of non-native English speakers and for the humor-impaired but judgmentally-inclined:  This post is a joke.