LvB Op 106 'Hammerklavier'

[Todd]

Do modern pianist really know better? I think it is just a fad.

A fad that has lasted over 70 years?  That doesn't qualify as a fad.  Even Schnabel clocks in at over 17' if I remember properly, and he's generally well respected in matters concerning Beethoven.  Well, for most people I suppose. 

[ezodisy]

What? Ten Thumbs? What is the significance of that?

not the most fashionable of jokes apparently

http://www.goenglish.com/AllThumbs.asp

[Drasko]

Kempff clocks Adagio at around 15 minutes in his mono recording.

[prémont]

Michael Korstick (Ars Musici 2003) uses 28:42 for the Adagio sostenuto.

[ezodisy]

Michael Korstick (Ars Musici 2003) uses 28:42 for the Adagio sostenuto.

Is it any good?

[FideLeo]

If only I could have Beethoven himself who seems to prefer under 14 minutes (allowing for the error in his metronome).

It's unlikely that Beethoven's metronome marks are in error here, as Czerny, who claimed to have learned the sonatas from Beethoven himself, and other early editors (e.g. Haslinger) apparently saw no need to change or suppress them. 

[aquablob]

In attempting to pinpoint a single favorite recording of this piece, one runs into difficulty. The four movements simply require totally different feels and styles. Unsurprisingly, I have different favorites for different movements.

For the first movement, Gulda undoubtedly wins -- he plays at tempo and cleanly. Arrau and Gilels play beautifully here, but too slowly! Gieseking plays up to speed, but too sloppy! Pollini of course plays very cleanly, and though his tempo is slightly slower than Gulda's, he plays with so much vigor (and even violence at times) that he's definitely my second choice for this movement.

Second movement is not easy to play, but is the easiest to pull off of the four movements. I'm not as picky here, and many pianists have much to offer. Kempff, Gilels, Arrau, Gulda, Pollini, Solomon, Richter... all worth hearing, but I'll take Pollini.

Third movement -- Solomon!

Finale -- Pollini, Gulda, Richter

Overall, my favorite has to be Gulda or Pollini. If I must pick one, I'll go with Gulda because his total command over the first movement is one of the most astounding pianistic/musical accomplishments that I know.

[scarpia]

In attempting to pinpoint a single favorite recording of this piece, one runs into difficulty. The four movements simply require totally different feels and styles. Unsurprisingly, I have different favorites for different movements.

This strikes me as utterly absurd.  The four movements of a sonata are an integrated whole and require a consistent style and feel.  It seems that all you have accomplished here is to delude yourself into thinking that you can't be satisfied to enjoy a performance of this piece by one of the world's great pianists.  Maybe next you will decide that different phrases require different styles, and that a different pianist should be chosen to perform each phrase!

[Ten thumbs]

It's unlikely that Beethoven's metronome marks are in error here, as Czerny, who claimed to have learned the sonatas from Beethoven himself, and other early editors (e.g. Haslinger) apparently saw no need to change or suppress them. 

I trust Beethoven's marks completely. It is his metronome instrument that I understand was a little inaccurate. However, I can hardly believe that this was by more than, say, 10%. Therefore his timing for the Adagio is clearly under 14 minutes. As we now have reached 28 minutes, above, you can see what I mean when I say that some tempos have been halved. If this has been going on for 70 years, I don't see that is anything to be proud of. However, to be fair, there do seem to be listeners who like to wallow in this movement. For myself, I have always been something of a purist. 15 minutes is how I feel it and I may have to settle for the Pollini version, but I'd like to hear it first.

[George]

Overall, my favorite has to be Gulda or Pollini.

[FideLeo]

I trust Beethoven's marks completely. It is his metronome instrument that I understand was a little inaccurate. However, I can hardly believe that this was by more than, say, 10%. Therefore his timing for the Adagio is clearly under 14 minutes. As we now have reached 28 minutes, above, you can see what I mean when I say that some tempos have been halved. If this has been going on for 70 years, I don't see that is anything to be proud of. However, to be fair, there do seem to be listeners who like to wallow in this movement. For myself, I have always been something of a purist. 15 minutes is how I feel it and I may have to settle for the Pollini version, but I'd like to hear it first.

In the last analysis, Beethoven's metronome marks for his music deserve some respect.  But starting some point in nineteenth-century, they have been slowly forgotten, ignored, or in some recent editions, even compromised.   By paying close attention to the composer's instructions, one may hope to bring the music closer to its original time scale, proportion and sense of movement within each of the sections.

[Rod Corkin]

Surely this is one of the hardest LvB works to play and also one of the most profound (along with Op 111). There are a few recordings of this work that are considered as great and I have three that I think are better than anyone elses. I'm listening now to a performance that is completely new to me that has made me seriously reevaluate the other two that I really rate highly. So once again, please give your top choice but this time feel free to add others that you rate along with it.

Serkin's recording playing an original Graf piano from the 1820s will be something of a revelation to many.

[Don]

This strikes me as utterly absurd.  The four movements of a sonata are an integrated whole and require a consistent style and feel.  It seems that all you have accomplished here is to delude yourself into thinking that you can't be satisfied to enjoy a performance of this piece by one of the world's great pianists.  Maybe next you will decide that different phrases require different styles, and that a different pianist should be chosen to perform each phrase!

I remember reading that a particular concert had a different pianist playing each of the variations in the Goldbergs.  I'd pay to see that one.  As far as the issue raised in the quote, I agree with the thoughts. 

[scarpia]

I remember reading that a particular concert had a different pianist playing each of the variations in the Goldbergs.  I'd pay to see that one.  As far as the issue raised in the quote, I agree with the thoughts. 

Which quote are you agreeing with?

[Holden]

I trust Beethoven's marks completely. It is his metronome instrument that I understand was a little inaccurate. However, I can hardly believe that this was by more than, say, 10%. Therefore his timing for the Adagio is clearly under 14 minutes. As we now have reached 28 minutes, above, you can see what I mean when I say that some tempos have been halved. If this has been going on for 70 years, I don't see that is anything to be proud of. However, to be fair, there do seem to be listeners who like to wallow in this movement. For myself, I have always been something of a purist. 15 minutes is how I feel it and I may have to settle for the Pollini version, but I'd like to hear it first.

But the Pollini adagio comes in at 17:13. You can sample it here

I've looked hard and can't find an Op 106 with an adagio of less than 17 minutes. Has anyone else found one?

[George]

But the Pollini adagio comes in at 17:13. You can sample it here

I've looked hard and can't find an Op 106 with an adagio of less than 17 minutes. Has anyone else found one?

Gulda. We posted him earlier. He's 13:42.

[orbital]

I remember reading that a particular concert had a different pianist playing each of the variations in the Goldbergs.  I'd pay to see that one. 

And I read about a concert in which Schumann's Carnaval was played that way. I think 2 or 3 movements of that concert can be found on youtube.

[Todd]

I've looked hard and can't find an Op 106 with an adagio of less than 17 minutes. Has anyone else found one?

There are a good number of recordings coming in under 17'.  I went back through all of my versions I currently hve (I've ditched some), and came up with the following timings:


Under 15'
Gulda - 1967: 13.44
O'Conor - 1992: 14.44
Gieseking - 1949: 14.53


Under 17'
Kempff - 1951: 15.21
Gulda - 1951: 15.44
Nat - 1954: 16.13
Serkin - '70s: 16.16
Kovacevich - '90s/'00s: 16.23
Kempff - 1964: 16.27
Backhaus - 1952: 16.32
Sheppard - 2004: 16.33
El Bacha - 1993: 16.35
Wehr - 2002: 16.35
Lipkin - '90s: 16.42
Pommier - '90s: 16.45
Brendel - '60s: 16.47
Badura-Skoda - 1970: 16.55


Considering I have over 50 versions, it seems most pianists favor longer timings.  At least most recorded pianists.

[Holden]

Gulda. We posted him earlier. He's 13:42.

Holden, on a hunch, goes to his CD collection, finds Gulda and sheepishly realises that he has this recording of the 'Hammerklavier' and yes the adagio is 13:43. Listening now! Someone sent me this (along with 17 and the Waldstein) as an example of Gulda's way with Op 53. I have probably only heard the Op 106 only once before.

This may be the version that is best for Ten Thumbs.

[Ten thumbs]

Holden, on a hunch, goes to his CD collection, finds Gulda and sheepishly realises that he has this recording of the 'Hammerklavier' and yes the adagio is 13:43. Listening now! Someone sent me this (along with 17 and the Waldstein) as an example of Gulda's way with Op 53. I have probably only heard the Op 106 only once before.

This may be the version that is best for Ten Thumbs.

Thank you. I will look out for it. I believe the extended times are due to peer pressure more than anything else. I can't believe its because these pianists want to put fewer works in their programmes. If they had done the sums they would know that Beethoven didn't want it like that.