This guy... Robert Newman...

[m_gigena]

But, of course, if Mozart was REALLY a genius composer and virtuoso etc. how can we explain (especially in the light of the conversation you have just quoted) that Mozart was unable to find a permanent professional musical position for his entire life ? How is it possible for Mozart to be one minute celebrated around the entire musical world and yet not obtain the post of Kapellmeister ?

This surely makes no sense if, in fact, Mozart was really the person we read about today.

But let me also point out that Dittersdorf (who you quote above) was one of the main publicity agents of Mozart and his fake career. Why ? How can we be sure of this ? Well, it was Dittersdorf who (the same as Mozart) was awarded the Order of the Golden Spur in Rome from the Pope. That award ensured that Mozart and Dittersdorf always praised each others as a members of the same Catholic order of nobility. And the same Order of the Golden Spur had also been awarded to Georg Vogler - the man who, in fact, was the agent for creating Mozart's adult reputation.

We are really dealing here with a reputation being built for Mozart by powerful sponsors that included Dittersdorf and members of the aristocracy. Supoorted by the Jesuit Order.

We have, of course, the famous posthumous picture of Mozart in his red jacket. But this jacket was part of the official uniform of members of the Order of the Golden Spur. We know he wore it at rehearsals to 'Le Nozze di Figaro' in May of 1786 in Vienna because it is refered to in the 2 volume 'Reminiscences' of Michael Kelly, a tenor singer who was in the first production of that opera. It is very clear that by 1786 the creation of Vienna as the 'city of music' included Mozart's artificial career. This organised by Georg Vogler and a network of Jesuit educated composers.

The list of anomalies and contradictions on each and every mature work of 'Mozart' is so long and so predictable that, I do believe, it will become clearer and clearer.

He has been spreading this theories about the Mozart Conspiracy for a while. And we both had fruitful discussions in which he exposes things like above, and I answer something that sounds like "stop spilling feces, you asshole" (Do forgive me for the language, but that's usually my attitude to him9.

Have you ever read him? What do you think of his theories?

[Daidalos]

Grandiose conspiracy theorizing without much substantiation. From what I've read of him, I get the impression he gets most of his stuff from mone scholar, then he proceeds to build his case on circumstances and suspicions.

I tend to ignore him.

[Josquin des Prez]

I've come across this guys several times. I can't believe he's been at it for so long. That man is a danger to himself and those around him. What a loony...

[m_gigena]

I've come across this guys several times. I can't believe he's been at it for so long. That man is a danger to himself and those around him. What a loony...

Definitely. And when you think he can't have more crazy ideas, he manages to come up with a new one...

[Gurn Blanston]

He's been banned from 4 different sites that I have posted on over the years: Open Mozart, The MozartForum, The Beethoven Forum and CMG. I have always found him to be vastly entertaining, the ultimate conspiracy theorist, and proposer of some of the most outlandish schemes ever devised. I still await the fulfillment of his promises of "proof".

[m_gigena]

He's been banned from 4 different sites that I have posted on over the years: Open Mozart, The MozartForum, The Beethoven Forum and CMG. I have always found him to be vastly entertaining, the ultimate conspiracy theorist, and proposer of some of the most outlandish schemes ever devised. I still await the fulfillment of his promises of "proof".

He's now entertaining TalkClassical (a more amateur thing). The awful thing is that it seems I'm the only one who's reacting to his comments. The rest of the board is interested in what he has to say...

[Gurn Blanston]

He's now entertaining TalkClassical (a more amateur thing). The awful thing is that it seems I'm the only one who's reacting to his comments. The rest of the board is interested in what he has to say...

Yes, he's a remarkably convincing bastard isn't he?  Some advice from one who's been there: don't argue with him, he lives for it. Do you notice that whenever you raise a question, he replies with a full page post that manages to never quite answer it? And when you ask for documentation, it is always promised but never delivered? Well, I'll tell you, it never will be delivered either. Nor will your direct questions ever be answered. 

[m_gigena]

Yes, he's a remarkably convincing bastard isn't he?  Some advice from one who's been there: don't argue with him, he lives for it.

And we both had fruitful discussions in which he exposes things like above, and I answer something that sounds like "stop spilling feces, you asshole" (Do forgive me for the language, but that's usually my attitude to him).

Yeah... I kind of figured that out. 

[Bogey]

And here is the leader of The Order of the Golden Spur:

[Gurn Blanston]

Yeah... I kind of figured that out. 

There is a warning on the package of these new potato chips that are fried in some different, non-fat cooking oil called "Olean". It says "Caution: could cause anal leakage". Appetizing thing for a snack food, I know, but I'm afraid Robert got addicted to them to the point where the whole digestive process went into an unfortunate reversal.

[Bogey]

These two will also confirm the above:

[m_gigena]

There is a warning on the package of these new potato chips that are fried in some different, non-fat cooking oil called "Olean". It says "Caution: could cause anal leakage". Appetizing thing for a snack food, I know, but I'm afraid Robert got addicted to them to the point where the whole digestive process went into an unfortunate reversal.

LOL. It doesn't matter if the process is cleaner or whatever, I would definitely not eat something that warns consumers that way.

[Gurn Blanston]

LOL. It doesn't matter if the process is cleaner or whatever, I would definitely not eat something that warns consumers that way.

Not exactly a public relations coup, is it.

Anyway, has he tried you out on the idea that Haydn's and Mozart's symphonies are both written by the same person? His "logic" for this was based on the statement that "even experts can hardly tell them apart". Voila! Proof! 

[quintett op.57]

I don't know why you guys need to insult this guy.
Don't you consider tolerance as a necesary quality?

He has interesting and less interesting arguments.
I think he's got a part of the truth. But he's got no proofs.

It's highly possible some Haydn & Mozart works were made by others.
Without a doubt, german and austrian authorities made many effort at that time to make people believe in the superiority of german art. The first musicographer were germans and made all they could to magnify german music.

But I don't believe arguments like these :
- A mozart symphony could easily be transformed into a Haydn symphony. (he admits himself he doesn't know very much about Mozart and Haydn's music but assumes that you have to insert a croatian-type melody and that's it)
- If Haydn stopped in Bonn on his trip to London, it's because he needed to meet Luchesi for him to give him his "London symphonies" (in fact, you'll see Bonn is clearly between Vienna and London, if you check a map. I've just asked a route finder, viamichelin.com, what the shortest way is to go frome Vienna to London. Bonn is on the itinerary they showed me. Most people doing the same trip probably stopped in Bonn, no plane at that time, it was a bit longer).

The leader of Newman's theory is an italian : Mr Taboga. I'm not convinced he's unpartial.
Luchesi being an italian, I was more interested in reading Newman's arguments. But he has not the musical knowledge of Mr Taboga.

I think Luchesi was a very talented composer whose works were used by others but I don't believe he was the extarordinary double genious they describe.

[Josquin des Prez]

I don't know why you guys need to insult this guy.

Doesn't surprise you'd come to his defense, yourself being easily lured to suspicions and conspiracies, like, for instance, the idea that half of Bach's themes were stolen from somebody else.   

Don't you consider tolerance as a necesary quality?

Tolerance in the face of dishonesty and deception?

[m_gigena]

It's highly possible some Haydn & Mozart works were made by others.

But that's not the same as saying "The Mozart case is the biggest musical scam in history".

Most people doing the same trip probably stopped in Bonn, no plane at that time, it was a bit longer.

It is obvious all of them stopped there to be provided with London Symphonies... How else would somebody want to visit Bonn?

They had this tavern, you know, in which a London Symphony came for free with the third pint of beer you ordered. (Offer expired IV/21/1801)

[quintett op.57]

Doesn't surprise you'd come to his defense, yourself being easily lured to suspicions and conspiracies, like, for instance, the idea that half of Bach's themes were stolen from somebody else.   

This is not suspicion
This is completely official.
There are at least 20 Bach quoted to Vivaldi, for example, without trying to be discreet at anytime.
He didn't even try to hide it.

But I don't say "stolen". "quoted" is the right word. I have enough respect for this guy.

doesn't change that you didn't interpreted my reaction properly :
I said I don't believe what he (Newman) says.
I said someone whose opinion is wrong is not necessarily an asshole.

nothing more.

[Josquin des Prez]

There are at least 20 Bach quoted to Vivaldi, for example, without trying to be discreet at anytime.
He didn't even try to hide it.

That's because Baroque composers didn't care about that stuff. For them, quoting a theme was actually a form of flattery (this is a practice which goes back to medieval times). The reason why it didn't matter is because the music was about form and development, not themes or melodies.

Even Vivaldi wasn't immune. The theme for his fugue in the RV 565 for example is by Benedetto Marcello. That's actually a pretty big borrowing (he went beyond 'quoting', he actually lifted the whole theme, note per note), considering that fugue is one of the high points of his Opus 3. Who knows how many more themes did he quote? Maybe if you had the same amount of bias against Vivaldi as you do against Bach, we'd find out. 

I said someone whose opinion is wrong is not necessarily an asshole.

You mean, like those holocaust deniers? 

[quintett op.57]

That's because Baroque composers didn't care about that stuff. For them, quoting a theme was actually a form of flattery (this is a practice which goes back to medieval times). The reason why it didn't matter is because the music was about form and development, not themes or melodies.

That is exactly the point. I regard melodies as secondary in Bach's music. More interesting are his variations.

Bach quoted all the time, he was opened to others'music more than anyone else at his time and found inspiration everywhere he could.
He was passionate about music, not only about composing, but about all the music that had been written.
His musical culture was immense.

[Gurn Blanston]

I said someone whose opinion is wrong is not necessarily an asshole.

However, he may be an asshole for other reasons than wrong opinions. Just a supposition, of course...