This guy... Robert Newman...

[Bunny]

I don't know why you guys need to insult this guy.
Don't you consider tolerance as a necesary quality?

He has interesting and less interesting arguments.
I think he's got a part of the truth. But he's got no proofs.

It's highly possible some Haydn & Mozart works were made by others.
Without a doubt, german and austrian authorities made many effort at that time to make people believe in the superiority of german art. The first musicographer were germans and made all they could to magnify german music.

But I don't believe arguments like these :
- A mozart symphony could easily be transformed into a Haydn symphony. (he admits himself he doesn't know very much about Mozart and Haydn's music but assumes that you have to insert a croatian-type melody and that's it)
- If Haydn stopped in Bonn on his trip to London, it's because he needed to meet Luchesi for him to give him his "London symphonies" (in fact, you'll see Bonn is clearly between Vienna and London, if you check a map. I've just asked a route finder, viamichelin.com, what the shortest way is to go frome Vienna to London. Bonn is on the itinerary they showed me. Most people doing the same trip probably stopped in Bonn, no plane at that time, it was a bit longer).

The leader of Newman's theory is an italian : Mr Taboga. I'm not convinced he's unpartial.
Luchesi being an italian, I was more interested in reading Newman's arguments. But he has not the musical knowledge of Mr Taboga.

I think Luchesi was a very talented composer whose works were used by others but I don't believe he was the extarordinary double genious they describe.

Not really when it's nonsense like that.  Partial truths are used to construct lies.

There is a warning on the package of these new potato chips that are fried in some different, non-fat cooking oil called "Olean". It says "Caution: could cause anal leakage". Appetizing thing for a snack food, I know, but I'm afraid Robert got addicted to them to the point where the whole digestive process went into an unfortunate reversal.

Olean is a fat substitute that has unfortunate digestive consequences for large numbers of people which is why it hasn't become industry standard.  They got the name  by combining the  O as in Oil and Lean as in non fat; pretty heavy handed branding

[Don]

I don't know why you guys need to insult this guy.
Don't you consider tolerance as a necesary quality?

Nah.  Intolerance is my mode of operation, and anyone holding opinions contrary to mine is eventually a goner.

I do want it placed on the record that I have not insulted "this guy".  I've got bigger fish to fry.

[Gurn Blanston]

I don't know why you guys need to insult this guy.
Don't you consider tolerance as a necesary quality?

Certainly, tolerance is a wonderful quality. I hereby inform you, in the event that you don't know it, this man has no tolerance for anyone who doesn't completely agree with him. I have been following his antics for years. That is not supposition on my part.

He has interesting and less interesting arguments.
I think he's got a part of the truth. But he's got no proofs.

Exactly, he has no proofs. I could tell you here and now that "Goldilocks and the 3 Bears" is absolutely true, and construct lots of circumstantial reasons why, but I couldn't prove it. Would you then say the same? You better!

It's highly possible some Haydn & Mozart works were made by others.
Without a doubt, german and austrian authorities made many effort at that time to make people believe in the superiority of german art. The first musicographer were germans and made all they could to magnify german music.

But he isn't saying that some works by others are attributed to Mozart and Haydn. No one who has even semi-seriously studied music history would argue against that. He is saying that ALL of the works currently attributed to Haydn and Mozart were composed by others and given to them as part of a conspiracy to create a legacy of German supremacy in art music. And everyone from the Emperor on down was a part of the conspiracy. And most of the works were composed by Italians who worked for various German courts. Oh, and don't forget, Beethoven's early works (The Leopold and Joseph cantatas, the three piano trios WoO 36, various others) were also really written by Luchesi, not Beethoven.

But I don't believe arguments like these :
- A mozart symphony could easily be transformed into a Haydn symphony. (he admits himself he doesn't know very much about Mozart and Haydn's music but assumes that you have to insert a croatian-type melody and that's it)
- If Haydn stopped in Bonn on his trip to London, it's because he needed to meet Luchesi for him to give him his "London symphonies" (in fact, you'll see Bonn is clearly between Vienna and London, if you check a map. I've just asked a route finder, viamichelin.com, what the shortest way is to go frome Vienna to London. Bonn is on the itinerary they showed me. Most people doing the same trip probably stopped in Bonn, no plane at that time, it was a bit longer).

Good, you shouldn't believe them. Without concrete evidence. BTW, he told me (on Beethoven Forum) that even musicologists couldn't tell Haydn's symphonies from Mozart's. When in fact there are so many internal stylistic differences that even a musical ignoramus such as myself can do it fairly easily. Take 2 works written at approximately the same time (1788). Mozart's Jupiter Symphony K 551 and Haydn's Symphony in Eb (Hob 91). Seriously, are these symphonies so similar in style and content that only a trained musicologist could tell them apart? And written by the same person at the same time? Who gave them away (or sold them) anonymously to further a conspiracy for nationalistic reasons (of another country! ). Ummm.... no.

The leader of Newman's theory is an italian : Mr Taboga. I'm not convinced he's unpartial.
Luchesi being an italian, I was more interested in reading Newman's arguments. But he has not the musical knowledge of Mr Taboga.

I think Luchesi was a very talented composer whose works were used by others but I don't believe he was the extarordinary double genious they describe.

I've heard a very little bit of Luchesi's music. I would like to hear more. Was he the mysterious figure behind the careers of Haydn, Mozart and early Beethoven? I... don't... think... so.

[johnQpublic]

The Newman guy was at least entertaining at CMG, but to take his half-baked theories seriously was ridiculous.

I remember asking him if these Mozart pieces were written by a number of others then how could there be some clear characteristics/gestures that I/we only associate as purely Mozartean?

He conveniently never responded to that point. What a tool!!

[quintett op.57]

Certainly, tolerance is a wonderful quality. I hereby inform you, in the event that you don't know it, this man has no tolerance for anyone who doesn't completely agree with him. I have been following his antics for years. That is not supposition on my part.

I find him very patient,  polite and respectful. At least on talkclassical.[/quote]
What has he done to you?

You mean, like those holocaust deniers?  Grin

There is no exception, you're not an asshole because you think wrong. There should be no doubt for anyone here. You, people who believe the best answer to haters is hate, you're wrong and you're behaving like them.

Manuel, why would you think Newman is a liar?
I think he's convinced of what he says and wants to share "truth" with people. I don't see any reason to think the contrary.

[m_gigena]

Manuel, why would you think Newman is a liar?
I think he's convinced of what he says and wants to share "truth" with people. I don't see any reason to think the contrary.

I don't think he lies. And it has never been my intention to communicate such a thing. He is so persistent in the matter that I'm sure he truly believes the ideas he shares. The lack of substance of those ideas is what I denounce, as his inability to prove them.
Perhaps he is in the position of proving them, or perhaps what he exposes is true but can not be demonstrated because of insufficient information. But is his attitude what I don't tolerate, as he is always evassive and changing subjects.

[quintett op.57]

Obviously, if you want to talk about Mozart and Haydn's music itself, he has not a sufficient knowledge to answer

[knight66]

This has been a vastly entertaining thread. I tend to skiff over his verbiage. I am not clear why, if it is his life's work, we should hand him some slack because he "has not a sufficient knowledge to answer" questions about the music?

Mike

[quintett op.57]

This has been a vastly entertaining thread. I tend to skiff over his verbiage. I am not clear why, if it is his life's work, we should hand him some slack because he "has not a sufficient knowledge to answer" questions about the music?

I'm sorry, english being only my 3rd language, I don't understand the exact meaning of "handing slack".

All I can do is summing up my opinion :
- Haydn & Mozart are among unsurpassable composers.
- But it's highly possible some of the pieces attributed to them were actually written by Luchesi, Sammartini or others.
- Newman is wrong but he has some interesting arguments.
- He's wrong and doesn't know very well Haydn & Mozart's works but it does not mean he's an asshole.

[Gurn Blanston]

I'm sorry, english being only my 3rd language, I don't understand the exact meaning of "handing slack".

All I can do is summing up my opinion :
- Haydn & Mozart are among unsurpassable composers.
- But it's highly possible some of the pieces attributed to them were actually written by Luchesi, Sammartini or others.
- Newman is wrong but he has some interesting arguments.
- He's wrong and doesn't know very well Haydn & Mozart's works but it does not mean he's an asshole.

"Hand some slack" means give some tolerance to, more or less.

1 - Yes indeed, can't argue with that.

2 - possible, but not in the way that Robert means, which is that there was a plot to build reputations, and that ALL Haydn and Mozart works were written by others. "Attributed to" and "stolen by" have 2 very different meanings in any language.

3 - True. I never fail to be intrigued and amused by some of the fantastic arguments he can derive simply by selective interpretation!

4 -
  a - Yes
  b - True
  c - Still open for debate.

It's really quite alright, we don't have to agree. As long as you don't come out and say that he is the New Messiah (and you haven't, so I don't accuse you of that), we can both be intrigued to whatever degree, and I will continue to be greatly amused.

[max]

...come to think of there is also a possibility that Beethoven was forced to praise Cherubini because it was Cherubini who was writing the whole mess while poor Ludwig was spending 6 months writing Fur Elise.
It was definitely Cherubini who wrote the Eroica and blamed it on Ludwig for tearing it up. Maybe it was a secret protest!

[Bunny]

...come to think of there is also a possibility that Beethoven was forced to praise Cherubini because it was Cherubini who was writing the whole mess while poor Ludwig was spending 6 months writing Fur Elise.
It was definitely Cherubini who wrote the Eroica and blamed it on Ludwig for tearing it up. Maybe it was a secret protest!

The original Hattogate.

[Don]

I don't find Newman to be sincere.  He always starts off by saying that there's a huge controversy, but he's the one who's creating it.

[quintett op.57]

No, he's a disciple of Professor Giorgio Taboga who came up with this controversy.

[Don]

No, he's a disciple of Professor Giorgio Taboga who came up with this controversy.

Did Taboga make it a huge controversy?  I have no idea.

[Josquin des Prez]

No, he's a disciple of Professor Giorgio Taboga who came up with this controversy.

Obviously, Professor Taboga's writings are actually by Robert Newman. The fact one can't distinguish the first from the other offers plenty of evidence...

[Josquin des Prez]

Did Taboga make it a huge controversy?  I have no idea.

Taboga has been largely ignored by scholars. Even researchers of Luchesi's music fail to mention him in relation with their subject.

It seems the only one who's getting an actual audience is Robert Newman.

[Cato]

Tolerating intolerance will lead to slavery, since the intolerant will thereby always have the upper hand.

Conspiracy theorists in general have a deep psychological need for control and feel inadequate: they are scared of chaos, and if the planet is under somebody's control, even if it is evil, they are reassured that at least things happen non-chaotically, and that control can be wrested from the evil ones.

This idea also allows them to explain away their own laziness, stupidity, lack of success, and cowardice.   

[quintett op.57]

What?