The Five Beethoven Piano Concertos and The Choral Fantasy

[scarpia]

This may be considered sacrilegious, but I really like the Ashkenazy/Solti/CSO recordings of the Beethoven Piano Concerti.  They are performances that exploit the virtuoso aspects of the music rather than plumb the poetic depths, but that's not necessarily a bad thing for this music.

[Valentino]

I have two recordings of op. 80:

1) The mentioned Aimard/Harnoncourt, where I disagree with Aimard's phrasing but love what the other forces do.
2) Brendel/Haitink, where Brendel is just right and the oher forces are fine too.

So what I would like is Brendel and Harnoncourt together...

On TV last night I saw part of a live performance done in Bergen, Norway this weekend where Andsnes conducted the Norwegian Chamber Orchestra and the Norwegian Soloists Choir from the keyboard. I do hope they'll manage to put that on disc. Explosive stuff.

[SonicMan46]

Ludwig's Piano Concertos - what are your 'current' favorites, either on period or modern instruments? 

I've been 'culling' my collection over the years and now have just 4 sets (and likely have gotten rid of an equal number - present recordings include, Lubin w/ Hogwood - Kuerti w/ Davis/Toronto - Sherman w/ Fischer - and the newest arrival the other day, Paul Lewis w/ Belohlavek/BBC SO - 

Today, I finished listening to the 3 discs of the newest set w/ Paul Lewis - I was indeed impressed w/ the recording quality, the sound stage w/ the pianist quite 'up front' (maybe at times too much?), and the BBC orchestra - attached is a superlative review from Fanfare by Dubins (Jan-Feb 2011 issue).

Thus, any comments on this pianist (have not heard any of his LvB sonata cycle) or other recordings in your collection that seem to stand out?  Thanks all!

[FideLeo]

Ludwig's Piano Concertos - what are your 'current' favorites, either on period or modern instruments? 

Period: Levin/Gardiner

http://www.youtube.com/v/tS7x5-Zj-Rg

[asin]B00001IVOJ[/asin]


Modern: Kovacevich/Davis

[asin]B000654OV0[/asin]

[SonicMan46]

Well, I'm surprised that there has been little interest in responding to the Paul Lewis recordings of Ludwig's Piano Concertos - these have received excellent comments (and some mixed reviews) - there must be others out there w/ some interest in this offering? 

But I'll posed the same question mentioned a few days ago - first, what to you think of the Paul Lewis offering; and second, what may be some recent recordings of these works that are worth exploring?

Thanks and look forward to some posts - 

[Gurn Blanston]

Well, I'm surprised that there has been little interest in responding to the Paul Lewis recordings of Ludwig's Piano Concertos - these have received excellent comments (and some mixed reviews) - there must be others out there w/ some interest in this offering? 

But I'll posed the same question mentioned a few days ago - first, what to you think of the Paul Lewis offering; and second, what may be some recent recordings of these works that are worth exploring?

Thanks and look forward to some posts - 

Hey, Dave,
What if I told you that for whatever reason (listened too much?) I am actually sort of burned out on those concerti! I don't understand it, it hasn't happened with any other music, but I just don't get a twitch at the prospect of cueing them up right now 

However, I agree with Maso.. Laurent, I like the Gardiner/Levin box a lot, despite the nearly strident advocacy for the Steven Lubin set a couple of years back. I also like the Immerseel with Tafelmusik/Weil, despite I haven't heard them for a long time.

On modern piano, there are so many good choices it boggles the mind. One of my earliest was Pollini/Abaddo/Berlin PO which I thought was a good, lyrical yet powerful rendition. I simply don't know your fellow Lewis, so can't comment at all on that one.

[Que]

My favourites:

Schnabel/Sargent (Pearl/ Naxos - historical)
Kempff/ Van Kempen (DG)
Serkin/ Kubelik (Orfeo -live)
Solomon/ Menges/ Cluytens (Testament)
Perahia/ Haitink (Sony)

And recently the HIP cycle by Schoonderwoerd (Alpha)

If pressed when my house is on fire, I would grab: Schnabel, Serkin and Schoonderwoerd.

Q

[Antoine Marchand]

I own several complete and incomplete cycles, but this one has been one of most impressive additions in the last time:

[asin]B003S0IJWK[/asin]

... which is rather curious because I really hate Gould playing the piano sonatas.

[Mandryka]

I own several complete and incomplete cycles, but this one has been one of most impressive additions in the last time:

[asin]B003S0IJWK[/asin]

... which is rather curious because I really hate Gould playing the piano sonatas.

Gould recorded the third with Karajan, a concert recording, which is special I think.

[Antoine Marchand]

Gould recorded the third with Karajan, a concert recording, which is special I think.

Interesting... In the above mentioned box set the orchestras & conductors are:

No. 1: Columbia Symphony Orchestra - Vladimir Golschman (rec. 1958)
No. 2: Columbia Symphony Orchestra - Leonard Bernstein (rec. 1957)
No. 3: Columbia Symphony Orchestra - Leonard Bernstein (rec. 1959)
No. 4: New York Philharmonic - Leonard Bernstein (rec. 1961)
No. 5: American Symphony Orchestra - Leopold Stokowsky (rec. 1966)

[Mandryka]

Interesting... In the above mentioned box set the orchestras & conductors are:

No. 1: Columbia Symphony Orchestra - Vladimir Golschman (rec. 1958)
No. 2: Columbia Symphony Orchestra - Leonard Bernstein (rec. 1957)
No. 3: Columbia Symphony Orchestra - Leonard Bernstein (rec. 1959)
No. 4: New York Philharmonic - Leonard Bernstein (rec. 1961)
No. 5: American Symphony Orchestra - Leopold Stokowsky (rec. 1966)

Bernstein iMO spoils most things there. One of the things I really regret is that there isn't a PC4 with a better conductor. As it is we're left with a recording where Gould is seriously shackled by the over reverential, over upholstered, turgid, flacid Bernstein.

As it is the PC 1 with Golschman is wonderful!

A similar story for the Bach concertos -- turgid and reverential with Bernstein, wonderful with Golschman.

I'm guessing that he didn't record the Beethoven PC 4 with anyone other than Bernstein.

He did record BWV1052 with Dimitri Mitropoulos (never heard it, but it could be stunning), and with Ladislav Slovak. I have heard that one. "It's  historically important  -- it was a concert which made Russian pianists aware of Gould, helped them realise that Feinberg's way isn't the only way, and was really influential on pianists like Bashkirov and Verdernikov and maybe Grinberg. Whatever Herman may say, in terms of the reception history Gould is more than a footnote -- though whether that's due to musicality of marketing is another, very interesting question.)



Gould must have liked Beethoven PC 2. There seem to be loads of different performances of that one on record.

[Mandryka]

What a difference 10 years makes. I just listened to PC1 with Gilels -- two CDs -- one with Sanderling from the 1950s and one with Szell in the 1960s. It's as if, in that 10 years, he'd lost his capacity for spontaneous music making.

I'm guessing it's time, rather than the conductor. I haven't had the chance to listen to the one he made with Vandernoot, which comes from the same time period as Sanderling.

I much prefer the Sanderling even though it's nowhere near as refined and as nuanced as the Szell. The Sanderling is fiery and exciting and spontaneous and totally irresistable. In a way he plays it not unlike  Argerich with Seiji Ozawa, who I also like a lot.

I like some slow PC1s too -- Harnoncourt/Aimard, for example.

Anyway, any ideas about favourite PC1s will be appreciated as I like this concerto a lot.

[prémont]

Anyway, any ideas about favourite PC1s will be appreciated as I like this concerto a lot.

I wonder what you would think of this? Maybe you will find it too aristocratic.

http://www.amazon.de/Klavierkonzerte-Haskil/dp/B000026JHN/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1343588625&sr=1-1

The CD also contains the Mozart double piano concerto and Bach BWV 1061. Geza Anda is the soloist in the LvB concerto.

[xochitl]

no one's mentioned uchida

just thought id throw it out there

[Mandryka]

I wonder what you would think of this? Maybe you will find it too aristocratic.

http://www.amazon.de/Klavierkonzerte-Haskil/dp/B000026JHN/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1343588625&sr=1-1

The CD also contains the Mozart double piano concerto and Bach BWV 1061. Geza Anda is the soloist in the LvB concerto.

No, not too aristocratic at all, she's very vigorous in the first movement.

I wonder what you think of this record which Cortot made of it in 1947 with Desarzens.

http://www.youtube.com/v/j9WeQJ_VNNc http://www.youtube.com/v/cS9jbeEPk5Q

Maybe you'll think he missed an opportunity to make more of  the spiritual bit towards the end of the first movement, where the music magically changes key (to C minor maybe) . Arrau/Haitink is wonderful at that point.

What I would really like is a performance which sounds like Schnooderwoerd's but with a bit more pep.

[prémont]

What a difference 10 years makes. I just listened to PC1 with Gilels -- two CDs -- one with Sanderling from the 1950s and one with Szell in the 1960s. It's as if, in that 10 years, he'd lost his capacity for spontaneous music making.

I much prefer the Sanderling even though it's nowhere near as refined and as nuanced as the Szell. The Sanderling is fiery and exciting and spontaneous and totally irresistable.

I often find considered expression equally rewarding or even more revarding than spontaneous expression. Of course I enjoy the Gilels/Sanderling as well as the Gilels/Szell, but I find the Gilels/Szell more moving, as I wrote about the fourth concerto. It is as if Gilels - and maybe also Szell - are well aware, that they may never get the opportunity to play the music again. I get similar associations by e.g. some of Klemperer´s late recordings, Arrau´s late Beethoven and Karl Ristenpart´s second Art of Fugue (the one from 1964/5, rereleased by Accord).

[prémont]

No, not too aristocratic at all, she's very vigorous in the first movement.

He, I think - Anda. I always found him a bit aristocratic.

I wonder what you think of this record which Cortot made of it in 1947 with Desarzens.

It is too late to listen to it to night, but to morrow I will do.

I have not heard the Schoonderwoerd recording, - the thought of OPPP does not appeal to me in Beethoven, and somebody has mentioned that the pianist simplifies some of the difficult passages - is this true? 

[Mandryka]

Haha. I just jumped to the conclusion that it was Clara Haskil playing! In my defense I remember thinking "Hmmm this doesn't sound like Haskil."

Right -- Schoonderwoerd. You must hear it (why haven't you got spotify linked to your hi-fi?) He is very successful in this concerto. One example -- The textures in the long opeining orchestral introduction are just unforgettable.  I said that ideally I wanted more pep, and I was thinking of the final movement, which he takes slowly. I don't know why, and it's quite a surprise when you first hear it. But it's the sort of thing you get used to maybe -- there could well be musical payback.

I also don't know why he uses just one violin. He has to improvise a continuo to support the violin in fact.  I don't have the booklet, which may discuss these things.  (one real limitation of spotify, where the booklet is good.) There's also a review in the Oxford  Early Music Magazine which I'd like to read, but I don't have access. I'm really saying that in the hope that someone lurking can help.

One disappointment is that he plays his own cadenza. What he does isn't very interesting I think. 

As far as I can tell he doesn't simplify the difficult passages.

[North Star]

Right -- Schoonderwoerd. You must hear it (why haven't you got spotify linked to your hi-fi?) He is very successful in this concerto. One example -- The textures in the long opeining orchestral introduction are just unforgettable.  I said that ideally I wanted more pep, and I was thinking of the final movement, which he takes slowly. I don't know why, and it's quite a surprise when you first hear it. But it's the sort of thing you get used to maybe -- there could well be musical payback.

I also don't know why he uses just one violin. He has to improvise a continuo to support the violin in fact.  I don't have the booklet, which may discuss these things.  (one real limitation of spotify, where the booklet is good.) There's also a review in the Oxford  Early Music Magazine which I'd like to read, but I don't have access. I'm really saying that in the hope that someone lurking can help.

One disappointment is that he plays his own cadenza. What he does isn't very interesting I think. 

I have Schoonderwoerd's 4&5 and 3&6, and he doesn't play any of the composed cadenzas, since they were all written afterwards, and the series tries to imitate the circumstances of the first performances. Since Schoonderwoerd's improvisations are not even close to the level of Beethoven's, it would have been more faithful to play the written cadenzas. But, at least for some of the concertos, the cadenzas were written later, and for a later instrument, so they can't be played on the period pianos. There is, of course, value in hearing the period pianos, but I'd like to have the versions with the pianos for which the cadenzas were written.

The orchestra size is 19 players for 3,4 & 6, and 20 for no. 5, and Schoonderwoerd playing basso continuo and solo.

[The Raven]

there are cadenzas for all his piano concertos that were composed by himself around 1808 with the exception that he directs no cadenza to be inserted to the 1st movement of the 5th... what is a 6th?  if it's op 61a there are 3 cadenzas composed by beethoven for 61a