Iannis Xenakis (1922-2001)

[petrarch]

ok, so I've got all the Xenakis cds now in front of me. I've gone through Amazon's 'Xenakis' list for a week straight, constantly saying, 'Got that one, got that one', to the point where I realize that I've come to the end of the line. And, if I don't haaave it,...I haaad it, at one time, and obviously don't feel like I'm missing anything.
(...)
Now I'm looking at these 30 odd cds and seeing what a confined little tiny space Xenakis takes up (but, hey, 30 cds isn't too bad,...Webern only gets 3!!). Do I know every note already? Is Xenakis boring to me now??

Do you have a list of the 30? Just wondering what I might be missing, my collection amounting to a little over 20 or so--sometimes I do get into bouts of completist-ness, although lately it's been with Stockhausen and only because I've had all of the first tier works for at least a decade and have been looking for other potential gems, and the same applies to Xenakis.

[greg]

I'd be interested in seeing a list, too.

I guess the good thing is, even though collecting all of Xenakis' recorded works isn't easy, at least you're not like me, collecting all of Prokofiev's recorded works  (and I'm getting pretty close). 

[snyprrr]

I'd be interested in seeing a list, too.

I guess the good thing is, even though collecting all of Xenakis' recorded works isn't easy, at least you're not like me, collecting all of Prokofiev's recorded works  (and I'm getting pretty close). 

Do you have a list of the 30? Just wondering what I might be missing, my collection amounting to a little over 20 or so--sometimes I do get into bouts of completist-ness, although lately it's been with Stockhausen and only because I've had all of the first tier works for at least a decade and have been looking for other potential gems, and the same applies to Xenakis.

XENAKIS: by snyprrr

DG w/Kekrops

Timpani Vols. 1-4 (though, not #5 (the only 'new' piece on that was Hiketides)

Col Legno w/Anastenaria, Troorkh, Ais

Mode w/Dammerschein, la D. Athena, Persephassa

Col Legno 'orchestral works & chamber music'

Etcetera Kraanerg

RZ-Edition Xenakis 2cd

new EMI 2cd

ChantduMonde Metastasis, Pithoprakta, Eonta

Salabert Orestia

EMF electronic music



Accord- Oophaa
Wergo w/Palimpsest, Epei, Dikthas, Akanthos
Mode JACK Quartet
Mode 'Music for Strings'
Arditti/Montaigne 2cd 'musique de chambre' (SQs +)

Roscobeck- Simax/Dan Styffe
Hunem-Iduhey- EMI/Edna Michell 'Compassion'

Okho- Montaigne/Arditti

Erato/Boulez/harpsichord 2cd 'Ultima'

Psappha- Sadlo/Teldec

Dmaathen- Glaetzer/Berlin

Khall-Perr- Wallace Collection/Linn

Pleiades- les P des S/Denon (w/Ishii,... better recording than Harmonia M)

Retours-Windungen- Conjunto Iberico/Channel

Tetras- 'Arditti One'



Xenakis 'Live in New York' (Kai, Kuilenn)

Mode 'Ensemble Music Vol.1'
Mode 'Ensemble Music Vol.2'

BVHAAST:

1) Xenakis Ensemble- Akea, Rebonds, Epicycles
2) Xenakis Ensemble- O-Mega
3) Ensemble Phorminx- Plekto



I'd like to get the 'Nuits' that's on Arion (the original version that I like best). That one's real tough to get.

I did actually find that there is a 1986 LP (Erato?) that has the current ColLegno 'Ais' on it, as well as 'Nekuia' (both by Tabachnik), so, hopefully, we may see 'Cendrees' (Erato LP) and 'Nekuia' on the next ColLegno/Xenakis disc. I'm also pretty sure that there is an 'Anamoessa' recording somewhere in tape form (didn't Petrarch,...sorry, I want to call you 'Pet Rock', haha,... didn't someone say they heard a recording of that?). So, come on Col Legno, you can do it!!



Anyhow, I think that's the list. As you can see, it's just the same old usual suspects. There really isn't any Xenakis 'completist' typoe collecting. Everything is so scattershot and piecemeal, that one just feels compelled to get everything available (barring the umpteenth version of 'Rebonds', of course, haha). I mean, we really don't have THAT far to go: just that choral/orch disc, and a few other stragglers, and we've got the whole pie.

Even his last orch work, 'Sea-Change', is on some strange Greek label (Lyra??). See if you can find it,...pleeeeeze. I have figured out that it's on an album with:

Xenakis- Sea-Change
Psatha- Luminoso
Adamis- Restless Geology
Plakidis- Glance Back
Lapidakis- Route E-15



I used to have:

Dox-Orkh- BIS/Arditti
La Legende de Eer- Montaigne
Mycenae Alpha- NUEMA

[petrarch]

Hmmm what about:
- Persepolis (have that on the original Fractal, and the newer Persepolis + remixes)
- The Neuma with Gendy3, Thallein, Tauriphanie
- There's another Fractal with Pour la paix and Voyage des Unari vers Andromede
- The passably interesting Music for Keyboard instruments on Neos (interesting to compare with the piano music on the Chamber Music CD on Montaigne)

I think my favourite CDs still are (you have/had all of them) the Montaigne Chamber Music 1955-1990 double CD, the double CD on Edition RZ with Syrmos, Terretektorh, Nomos Gamma and others and the Montaigne La Légende d'Eer. I could never get rid of any of these.

[snyprrr]

I guess my main thing with the state of X's recorded legacy is that... it is what it is. What we have is what we have.

Nevermind that Ligeti gets to have a DG box,... and grumbles like that aside, X seems to have, usually, one,...one,... one single, dubiously classic, recording, like how I just happened to find that LP of 'Nekuia', athough it shows up in NONE of the Xenakis sites, or discographies. I know that I have seen a radio broadcast, or something, somewhere, concerning 'Anemoessa', but, this too shows up in none of the official tallies.

It tickles me, thinking all nostalgic about that Montaigne/Arditti 2cd set from 1991. Am I not sure that every single person on this thread has that one? Wasn't that THE set that plunged us all even further? I mean, please don't argue this point. Before that set, WHAT big slab of X had anyone really heard?

Anyhow, my point is that now, we live in a post-Timpani series world, and a post-Mode series world. Certainly,...most certainly, that Timpani series was the greatest thing to happen to 'us' since that Arditti set (though, I WILL give Bornstein his credit ), but, the prospect that they 'finish' before they have capped off their series with the crowning jewel ('Cendrees', 'Anemoessa', 'Nekuia') is certainly a setback, unless of course, ColLegno culls the premieres of those three works on a new cd (which could happen).

Everytime I see a brand new cd with a brand new X work on it, my whole world goes bibble tibble. I look at it, going oooh & aaah, and then I do the equivalent of victory dance before I cozy up to,... uh, usually another disappointment. Do you remember the first time you heard 'Xenakis: Live in New York'. Yikes! Is that the worst recorded album of all time, or what? And now, that album is indispensible for 'Kai' & 'Kuilenn', two pieces that probably won't ever make any sense unless they have  a better presentation (I just can't hear ANY detail here. You practically have to turn the stereo all the way up ).

80% of my posts on this thread are rants against the very people who are trying to expose me to more of X. Go figure. I don't give blue ribbons to also rans.

Perhaps I will attempt to contact BIS and ColLegno, seeing I can't get a response from Timpani.



ok, I'm sure you all are getting tired of me padding this thread with nothing particular. Call your congressman!

[Luke]

I'd like to get the 'Nuits' that's on Arion (the original version that I like best). That one's real tough to get.

I think I still have my copy (coupled with Messiaen, right?). PM me..........

[Luke]

Yes, to confirm, I do - I have it here in my sweaty little paws

[snyprrr]

Yes, to confirm, I do - I have it here in my sweaty little paws

drooling

[Luke]

Over the CD, I hope, not the paws..........

[snyprrr]

ok, I've found them all, haha!!

'Cendrees' is on the Erato LP that is now on YouTube.

'Anemoessa' is on the 5cd "50 Years of the Holland Festival". This is the premiere with Dufallo.

'Nekuia' is on an Erato(?) LP, with 'N'Shima' (doesn't seem to be the version on the ColLegno "orchestral works & chamber music"), and 'Ais' (this IS the version that made its way to cd, with 'Anatenaria' and 'Troorkh').



So, all things are possible, but not probable!

The 'Holland Festival' is @$50,... do you want to dare me to get it for just one 11min piece?? Am I that far gone? oh, when will the madness end?

I have a feeling I'll be writing ColLegno (I just wrote Globe).

[snyprrr]

Hmmm what about:
- Persepolis (have that on the original Fractal, and the newer Persepolis + remixes)
- The Neuma with Gendy3, Thallein, Tauriphanie
- There's another Fractal with Pour la paix and Voyage des Unari vers Andromede
- The passably interesting Music for Keyboard instruments on Neos (interesting to compare with the piano music on the Chamber Music CD on Montaigne)

I think my favourite CDs still are (you have/had all of them) the Montaigne Chamber Music 1955-1990 double CD, the double CD on Edition RZ with Syrmos, Terretektorh, Nomos Gamma and others and the Montaigne La Légende d'Eer. I could never get rid of any of these.

Persepolis IS also on the RZ-Editions. I have yet to make it through that!!

I did also have that Neuma with Gendy3. X's electronic stuff just really wears on me.

I made it through a few minutes of Pour la Paix on YouTube, but, it's just to 'French' for me. The Voyage Absolu is also on one of those 'New Perspectives' cds (forget the label). That may be my fav X electronic piece.

[greg]

I made it through a few minutes of Pour la Paix on YouTube, but, it's just to 'French' for me.

I understand... to me, it sucks when there are long monologues in a language I don't understand.

[snyprrr]

I'm sure everyone here has the Mode cd 'Ensemble Pieces 1' (ST-X Ensemble), which has the World Premiere of X's sextet, Plekto. Based on that recording, I found a piece that appeared to be an hommage to Messiaen, very block-like, and tonal in that Mesiaen-like way.

The problem was that the recording itself was pretty claustrophobic, the piano sounded pretty clunky, and the percussionist,...oy, the percussionist,... well, IMHO, he is flubbing all over the place here. Add on to this the fact that the piece, according to Xenakis lists, is supposed to be 14mins, and that the recording clocks in at,...8mins!!, and we have the beginnings of much head scratching.

I just couldn't figure this piece out. It just seemed like such a sad, defeated 'old man writing nicer music' type feel to it, but had some moments of the most beauty one is likely to find in Xenakis (listen in the middle, tonal, section). I became very frustrated.

In the Xenakis lists, there is some 'in house' type of recording that has Plekto on it, but, I was surfing Amazon, and found this BVHAAST cd by the Ensemble Phorminx (EPh). It was about $40 on Amazon, but then I found this BVHAAST sale (5 EUs), so, yesterday I finally was able to make the compare.

Wow! Especially with Xenakis, if you play the piece quicker or slower, you can get some strange things to happen. Well, this EPh version clocks in at 13'30, as opposed to the ST-X 8'10. Wow, for Xenakis that's a huuuge difference. And... and... and YES!, this EP version IS DA BOMB!! It's almost a completely different piece of music. WShereas the ST-X version sounds like a scrappy little chamber work, the EPh version sounds positively symphonic (fl, cl, pf, prc, vln, vnc), which, for a tiny sextet of this makeup, seems like quite an achievement.

The piano still sounds strangely boxy here, but then I listened a little closer, and in fact, it is the music. The piano is the instrument which delivers most of the bite in this piece (though, none of the usual Xenakis/piano fireworks). The percussion however, in this piece, haha, is just really night and day from the ST-X. In the Eph version, it really sounds like typical Xenakis percussion, with the halting and ricocheting. It's really quite unbelieveable hearing the difference between these two percussionists. Truly this difference makes for almost two different pieces.

Also, in this newer EPh version, I'm hearing string glissandos at the end where I didn't hear them in the ST-X version. As a matter of fact, there is so much more detail caught here that I really do feel like I'm hearing a brand new X piece. The slower (and I gather, more correct) tempo makes all the difference, though, when I compared, the much faster ST-X version had a few felicities of its own, such as how that tonal section comes off sounding more 'right' at the faster tempo.

Which brings up an interesting observation. Some of the sections sound more right played fast, whilst others sound better slower, showing up the geometry of Xenakis' music, where, depending on the tempo, accents will either fall here, or, there. The downbeat of the two versions seems to change.



Well, I want to say to all you out there who, like me, have scratched your heads over this Mode/ST-X Plekto, for over a decade!, that this piece really doesn't suck (if that's what your conclusion has been), and that Plekto truly is a worthy successor to works like Jalons and Waarg. The almost orchestral/symphonic dimensions of this BVHAAST version reveal a superbly diaphonous piece of splintered late music.

You guys, check out that BVHAAST Sale. There's some really cool stuff, and also some rare Xenakis (such as O-Mega, and this). I am so glad that this piece has been saved from the interpretive trashheap, and it just feels so good to feel like I have a brand new X piece to pour over.

Awesome!

[snyprrr]

Dutiful slave that I am, I ordered both of the Aki Takahashi/Mode discs of piano music.

I was listening to as many samples on Amazon as I could find, and, whether or not Marc Ponthus (Neuma) is as good as Ms.(?) Takahashi (which he may well sound to be), his recording seems a bit less clinical than the Mode (which, IS clinical to a degree, the way I need this music). Ms. Takahashi just seems to convey the math better than anyone out there: isn't this now the most inevitable Xenakis cd on the market? (I had it as a promo when it came out, but settled for the Helffer/Arditti set when I needed money; now, I find I neeeeeed the Takahashi to satisky my heightened sense of Xenakis performance standards)

Do you agree that Helffer just misses that last ounce of transcendence in the the most hair raising passages, sounding human where the music demands godliness? Does the music require a better performance than Ms. Takahashi's, or, IS she THEE conduit (I think maybe,... unless some eight year old out there is waiting in the wings (probably))? I wasn't convinced by the cd of electronic realizations (except that Herma really came across nicely, the spacial element perfectly realized).

Helffer has an alternative version of Mists (Accord), which, to my ears, sounds a little more assured than the Montaigne set. I could be wrong here and in need of further study. There is also a version by Klara Kormendi (Hungaroton), which has been around forever (I'll see if the library still has it).

There are a few other recordings of Evryali (a Japanese lady, a cd called 'Decoding Skin, I think one or two more), but the Amazon samples weren't cued to crucial spots, so I couldn't tell any detail. The Japanese lady, however, had a pretty reverberant acoustic, which doesn't always serve this music.



I am so at the end of collecting Xenakis that I'm feeling a bit depressed . All there is to do now is to wait for the few remaining stragglers to make it to disc, which, judging by history, might be like Waiting for Godot, so, now perhaps is the time to begin doing a thorough re-evalution of Xenakis' art. I feel his stature will only grow.

[snyprrr]

I've heard a recording of Anemoessa in the late 90s at a conference by Harry Halbreich (Charles Bornstein was also presenting some other stuff). The vocal element did not attract me.

The 'Dutch Miracle' 6cd boxset, wherein resides one of the most unlikely Xenakis recordings, has arrived! I spent $40 on 13mins of music, and, in memoriam of my common sense (!), I am going to share my cherry listen with you (awww ).

Ais (1980) comes right after Anemoessa (1979), so I have that on hand to compare. Though I listened to (hmmm,...'heard') Ais recently, I have trouble remembering anything particular about the music itself, except for the percussion solo, of course.

Anemoessa is given as the horrible translation, Filled with Wind (from the Greek anemos (wind), where, I assume, we get the word 'animated'), which, if anyone out there has some braincells working this morning, could certainly be rendered with more poetics, I'm sure!

Looking over the formal outline of the piece, the first thing I notice is that the percussion is limited to two bits in the middle, so, I know at least not to expect what recently I have grown accustomed to, namely, Xenakis' percussion style. The rest of the music doesn't readily reveal itself.

ok ok,...enough BS.

I settle in...the cd goes in the machine,...and,...and...



ANEMOESSA (Filled with Wind; 12:54) for chorus and orchestra
Radio Philharmonic Orchestra
Chorus of the Netherlands Radio
Richard Dufallo (16 June, 1979)



WOW! PetrArch, I don't know what it was that you didn't like about this, but WOW!, the piece starts off in, I'm going to say, stunning! fashion, with low, growling strings, and what sounds like the 'ah' of a Gregorian Chant. And then, cosmic mystery begins to build, something like Kekrops-meets-Echange, two of the composer's darkest sounding works.

I'm now 4mins in. There's a break. So far, the choral contribution has been of the vocalise siren songs, with only phonemes (ohs, and ahs), very much the inheritor of all 'sailors on the rocks' type mythic choruses.

7mins. So far, I'm so bowled over by this uber dramatic music, that I cannot think clearly. I can only experience this force of nature. I feel like I'm on the shores of mythic cliffs overlooking the primal ocean, with the music and chorus waving in the wind (ah, there it is!), a la Jonchaies (but much more mysteriously).

11mins. Another tiny break. The brass plugs and spurts along, very menacing amoungst the Xenakis literature. The chorus intones bell-like, church-like sonorities. In the midst of all the confusion, the piece ends peacefully, just whzzzzzzzz, and it's over, and there's a half minute of applause (the recording is not, perhaps, the last word in absolute clarity, but I trust that further listens will reveal more detail. It's more than serviceable.).



So, wow! That was some of the most awesome 12.5mins. of Xenakis I've heard. I know most of you haven't heard this yet (hey, the box is out there for @$50! ), but, as a closet sceptic, I am truly surprised and enlightened. I can't believe that this most communicative work hasn't been the one put forth as the best example of Xenakis' art. From the notes:

"The composer wrote in the programme amoungst much else that 'In this piece I have brought about a type of music-making for chorus and orchestra that resembles a camoflage or excavation process (...) In one sense it can be compared to steering a boat between reefs that suddenly appear and must be visible to be avoided! (...) The voices are used as instruments and often play an important part. As a text I have used simple and obvious groups of letters, vowels without any meaning. The music is more important than the words.'"

I maintain that there are no words, haha! It's siren-music. Anyway, I listen again.



LISTEN #2:

The most impressive, the most elemental Xenakis. I don't know what PetrArch didn't like, but I am mightily impressive with the choral writing here: I believe it's his most impressive choral work. For much of the time, the chorus acts like true Xenakis electronic music, where each voice is truly independent. It's a shame the recording isn't better. I'm sure that if I turned it up to 11 though (!) .

This truly shifts my perception of Xenakis. I am stunned by the utter originality of the piece. Though all the Xenakis hallmarks are there, they are put together here in such a way that is so utterly visual, that the 'wind' of the title simply jumps out at you. It's the 'duh' factor, haha!

I want to compare this to Dallapicolla's Question with Two Answers. Seldom do I really get that ancient, granitic feeling in modern music. Chavez's(?) Symphony No.1 (Sinfonia India) is an example. I'm fumbling here, haha!

Well, longwinded gasbag that I am, I declare once again that this is the shizzle! I will need time here to recover. Wow!

[Sergeant Rock]

Filled with Wind...and not only the piece 

Seriously, Snyprrr...thanks for the review. Almost makes me want to spend 50 bucks.

Sarge

[petrarch]

The most impressive, the most elemental Xenakis. I don't know what PetrArch didn't like, but I am mightily impressive with the choral writing here: I believe it's his most impressive choral work.

To be honest, I don't recall much of it myself . It might have been due to what was presented was an analysis of the work, a succession of fragments and no cohesive narrative of the "whole". To give you some perspective, I am very picky about modern music for or with voices and usually don't like it (but there are exceptions, like Berio's Sinfonia, Ligeti's Lux Aeterna or Scelsi's Uaxuctum, to name just a few).

[bhodges]

As an aside, I can vouch for the quality of that box: it's excellent.  (And I've not heard the Xenakis on it yet!  )  Among the treasures: two versions of Webern's Five Pieces for Orchestra with the Concertgebouw--one with Boulez conducting, the other with Giulini. 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Years-Holland-Festival-Anton-Webern/dp/B000026GDE

--Bruce

[greg]

Good to know there's some Xenakis collectors out there, not to mention some hardcore enough to pay $50 just to hear a single work! 

(glad it was worth it for you, snyprrr)

[snyprrr]

To be honest, I don't recall much of it myself . It might have been due to what was presented was an analysis of the work, a succession of fragments and no cohesive narrative of the "whole". To give you some perspective, I am very picky about modern music for or with voices and usually don't like it (but there are exceptions, like Berio's Sinfonia, Ligeti's Lux Aeterna or Scelsi's Uaxuctum, to name just a few).

As an aside, I can vouch for the quality of that box: it's excellent.  (And I've not heard the Xenakis on it yet!  )  Among the treasures: two versions of Webern's Five Pieces for Orchestra with the Concertgebouw--one with Boulez conducting, the other with Giulini. 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Years-Holland-Festival-Anton-Webern/dp/B000026GDE

--Bruce

Good to know there's some Xenakis collectors out there, not to mention some hardcore enough to pay $50 just to hear a single work! 

(glad it was worth it for you, snyprrr)

Filled with Wind...and not only the piece 

Seriously, Snyprrr...thanks for the review. Almost makes me want to spend 50 bucks.

Sarge

Glad to be of service!

As to PetrArch's taste in Avant Vocal,... the thing that struck me hear is that I was all ready to hear the usual barking and yelping, but the vocals sound very much like Ligeti here, totally integrated into the texture. I'm as picky as you are, in this regard (and, does anyone really 'like' Xenakis vocals?,... Mel Torme they're not, haha!), and so I can heartily recommend this one to you all. It's the most Beethovenian Xenakis I've heard. As good, or better, than Jonchaies.

You know that DG disc 'Wein Modern', the first one, with Rihm, Nono, Ligeti, and Boulez? This would have been the highlight of that disc!

btw- the 'wind' theme has come out around me in the last 48hrs. like gangbusters, haha,... every form of wind imaginable, haha! including this awesome thunderstorm!