Iannis Xenakis (1922-2001)

[Mirror Image]

Well, he IS entitled to an opinion, and I've been reading his posts since the other night. They are not all negative, there are some things he appears to like and some things otherwise. I can't imagine a situation where someone is 100% behind everything a composer did, that's a pretty high standard to maintain. However, when people write provocative posts that encourage someone to lash out at them, it is called passive/aggressive behavior. I think it is very unwise to be passive/aggressive....

GB

He certainly is entitled to his opinion. Did I ever question that he wasn't, Gurn? What I don't understand, though, is the need to continue post about a composer you don't thoroughly enjoy. It's like me going to the Haydn thread and making some negative comments knowing good and well that this kind of thing isn't fruitful in the long run. I'm not out to change anyone's mind about the music, I just think people should stop bitching and start posting about music that they do enjoy, so they, in turn, can engage in a conversation with someone. I don't mind honest opinions and I'm thankful for anyone that listens to one of my recommendations, but, at the same time, we should at least try to find some common ground.

As I've posted before, I don't like everything I've heard from Xenakis just like I don't like everything I've heard from Sibelius, but I would rather discuss a work I enjoy rather than one that I didn't. That's all I'm saying.

[snyprrr]

Actually James's description of his reaction to Xenakis is rather similar to my reaction to KHS.  Perhaps one of us should tell him to listen to every single note that Xenakis composed before deciding Xenakis had nothing of interest for him?

To be perfectly honest, my one, rather limited exposure, to Xenakis didn't encourage me to look for more.  Your exchange earlier today with Glasgow John sums up my reaction--although instead of brutal I'd use the word ugly or noisy.  And due to a set of circumstances not really relevant to the thread (involving a ex co worker who was trying to pay as little as possible for the department Christmas present exchange, and probably paid nothing) I'm not even sure which Xenakis work(s) I was listening to! (I assumed they were the works most readily available to download off the Internet.)

See if 'Emprientes' is on YT. That's my choice. And 'L'Isle de goree' I think is the most accessible Xenakis. 'Ata' also is quite fun, and Stravinskian. Anything before the '70s is pretty brutal, and the Late Works aren't for the novice. Perhaps the single, ultimate Xenakis work is 'Thallein' ('Jalons' is good too) or- for sheer power and awesomeness- 'Keqrops'.

Xenakis should really have written 'Kraken'!

[Karl Henning]

. . . is not on the Uing.

[Mr Bloom]

Well, it appears that there are some works James enjoys by Xenakis, but it seems to me there's this underlying superiority type of attitude he has about the music where he thinks what he listens to is certified gold which makes me think he's somehow undermining what petrarch and I are saying. I don't know maybe I'm just thinking too much here.

James is a Stockhausen fan after all. You can't expect much from this kind of people.

[Mirror Image]

James is a Stockhausen fan after all. You can't expect much from this kind of people.

That's certainly true!

[Pessoa]

I like Stockhausen a lot myself. I don´t expect to be expected from. 

[kishnevi]

I like Stockhausen a lot myself. I don´t expect to be expected from. 

But you're not James.  Let's just say that 1) perhaps the only person who thinks more highly of Stockhausen's music was Stockhausen and 2)too much enthusiasm can be a detriment to effective advocacy.  Especially when that advocacy is made using cut and paste of other people's descriptions, instead of personal reactions.

As it is,  I take James's suggestions for what to listen for in Xenakis far more seriously than anything he says about Stockhausen.

[Pessoa]

Let's just say that 1) perhaps the only person who thinks more highly of Stockhausen's music was Stockhausen and 2)too much enthusiasm can be a detriment to effective advocacy. 

1. Looks likely.
2. Couldn´t agree more.

[Mirror Image]

But you're not James.  Let's just say that 1) perhaps the only person who thinks more highly of Stockhausen's music was Stockhausen and 2)too much enthusiasm can be a detriment to effective advocacy.  Especially when that advocacy is made using cut and paste of other people's descriptions, instead of personal reactions.

As it is,  I take James's suggestions for what to listen for in Xenakis far more seriously than anything he says about Stockhausen.

You certainly raise a very good point here, Jeffrey. I certainly could be guilty of doing this with many composers. In many cases, my enthusiasm for a composer gets in the way of seeing forest beyond the trees.

[North Star]

But you're not James.  Let's just say that 1) perhaps the only person who thinks more highly of Stockhausen's music was Stockhausen

Are we sure Stockhausen thinks more highly of his own music than (e.g.) James?

[snyprrr]

Jeffrey, you talk too much; and most of it here is just dead air. If you ever want to have a serious discussion just let me know.

I still want to know what you think of 'Emprientes' in the Timpani Box. I KNOW you would also greatly enjoy that new Mode release.

When I hear you speak of the Xenakian 'blobs', I wonder if you're only speaking of things like 'Kraanerg' (which, in the old Etcetera release at least, DOES have a dreary, amorphous quality) or 'Persepolis' or some of his messier '60s Works such as 'Strategie' (ay ay ay)? Or what about the sonic lobotomy that is 'Bohor'?

Sure, there is a lot of Excedrin inducing Xenakis, but, there's a lot of... pardon me, Cage AND ykw, that, from the '60s can be, you know. MOST of the Composers of High Modernism blossomed in the '70s-going-into-the-'80s, creating more Individual Works than their earlier, Damstadtian, heritage? Look at Lutoslawski- definite trajectory there: early-middle-late. Same with Xenakis, and most all others, no?

Try 'L'Isle de goree', what I may consider the most 'beautiful' Xenakis,...

but, the 'Zythos', with 6 marimbas, reminded me no less than of KHS's 'Heaven's Door' (in sound impact, not in actual 'notes'), but, I'm not really into comparing these two too much. I don't argue that Late Xenakis and Late KHS are worth comparing. Xenakis seems to retreat AND expand at the same time, whereas KHS seems to have a gargantuan Unifying Cycle that keeps him busy.

Late Xenakis is a head scratcher for sure, but, the more I put it in context, the more Total Originality seems to come from a bizarrely stark work like 'Zythos'. KHS may still be wielding some Virtuosity in his later years, but Xenakis knows how to play the wrong note at the right time, so to speak (for impact, memorability, remembrance).

[snyprrr]

btw- the Forum has DEFINITELY turned Modern here lately, Haven't seen 'ole Haydn or Brian in a while! Good show!! onward, forward

[ibanezmonster]

You can pretty much start to understand Xenakis' later works with this video score of Ergma.

http://www.youtube.com/v/ltHMxRDKq3g

I actually think I'm liking it more now than I did several years ago. The most striking thing about it other than the fact that all of the strings play double stops throughout is that there are no rhythmic subdivision- at all.

Although the dissonance is as brutal as ever, it's neither testosterone driven nor cerebral...

[Karl Henning]

Choleric?

[ibanezmonster]

Choleric?

Basically.

[not edward]

You can pretty much start to understand Xenakis' later works with this video score of Ergma.

I actually think I'm liking it more now than I did several years ago. The most striking thing about it other than the fact that all of the strings play double stops throughout is that there are no rhythmic subdivision- at all.

Although the dissonance is as brutal as ever, it's neither testosterone driven nor cerebral...

It's not really *that* similar compositionally, but I find that late Xenakis sometimes has the same sort of effect as the tramping quarter notes that dominate a lot of Ustvolskaya.

[amw]

It's not really *that* similar compositionally, but I find that late Xenakis sometimes has the same sort of effect as the tramping quarter notes that dominate a lot of Ustvolskaya.

That's a reasonable comparison. That said the aural effects of the "beating" dissonances in a work like Ergma or Ittidra are practically hallucinogenic, like trying to cause synaesthesia in non-synaesthetes, if that makes any sense. (Ustvolskaya comes close to that ideal in the 6th piano sonata, though not in very much else.) There's much more of a sense of some kind of mystico-religious vision, ecstasy without sensuousness. Obliteration of the self, even, helped along by the fact that the ensemble is typically moving in almost exact rhythmic unison. All this from an atheist too

[petrarch]

There's much more of a sense of some kind of mystico-religious vision, ecstasy without sensuousness. Obliteration of the self, even, helped along by the fact that the ensemble is typically moving in almost exact rhythmic unison. All this from an atheist too

Goes to show how much of music is the listener projecting their own imagination and sensibilities .

[Mr Bloom]

You can pretty much start to understand Xenakis' later works with this video score of Ergma.

What I understood from people who knew Xenakis, from the middle of the 80's until he stopped composing in 1997, he was pretty much depressed and disillusioned. Hence the harsh style of these works and their lack of "seduction" that his music from the 70's had.
I also remember an interview from 95 or 96 where he said that all he wanted to do now was watch cartoons on TV.

[Pessoa]

I also remember an interview from 95 or 96 where he said that all he wanted to do now was watch cartoons on TV.

That´s where I started.