A British Composer Poll

[Sergeant Rock]

Sarge, You mentioned The Messiah as being quintessentially English. I have a version in German, it sure does not then sound English. Mendelssohn's Elijah in English sounds more English.

As I said to Franco, English music is, to me, music that is associated with England. It's that simple. Elgar's First Symphony was embraced by the Germans (conductor Hans Richter, for example) because I'm sure they heard the Germanic influence. But it doesn't sound at all German to me. That symphony is quintessentially English. All Elgar's music is even though he could not have written any of it if he'd been unaware of what was happening in Germany and Austria.

I understand the concept of "national music" didn't really exist in the 18th century. (Mozart was German but wrote Italian operas. He had to fight to get his Singspiele produced.) Nonetheless, the Messiah, Fireworks, Water Music are so closely associated with historical events in England I have a hard time thinking of them as anything but English works.

Sarge

[knight66]

I won't keep banging on about this, but the Water Music was written, in part, as a reconciliation between Handel and the Elector of Hanover, (Handel's former employer and who he absconded from), once he became none other than George I and who did not really speak English. To an extent the Court became a German enclave. The Fireworks Music was written for George II, also born outside of the UK.....but he at least did speak English.

Mike

[Elgarian]

I just spent half an hour writing a post of enormous wit, insight, and wisdom - possibly the best post I've ever written, completely nailing every conceivable problem concerning Englishness in music, painting, tap-dancing, and the development of stamp albums. I clicked 'Preview'. I needed to change a typo. By accident I clicked on the 'preview' text instead of the text in the response box. The post vanished in that single click, never to return.

I am shaken to the core. The loss to the world is irreparable. The loss to me is catastrophic: it's made me feel slightly neutral about Vaughan Williams!

[knight66]

Does that mean all my half baked efforts stand?

Yeah! Result!

Mike

[Sergeant Rock]

I won't keep banging on about this, but the Water Music was written, in part, as a reconciliation between Handel and the Elector of Hanover, (Handel's former employer and who he absconded from), once he became none other than George I and who did not really speak English. To an extent the Court became a German enclave. The Fireworks Music was written for George II, also born outside of the UK.....but he at least did speak English.

Mike

Sure, sure, Mike, but you know, all that Kraut and Frog influence is what makes you so English 

Sarge

[knight66]

I'm Scots 

Mike

[Sergeant Rock]

I just spent half an hour writing a post of enormous wit, insight, and wisdom - possibly the best post I've ever written, completely nailing every conceivable problem concerning Englishness in music, painting, tap-dancing, and the development of stamp albums. I clicked 'Preview'. I needed to change a typo. By accident I clicked on the 'preview' text instead of the text in the response box. The post vanished in that single click, never to return.

Son of a bitch...I hate when that happens (and it happens quite often actually...I wish the software had a recovery button).

I am shaken to the core. The loss to the world is irreparable. The loss to me is catastrophic: it's made me feel slightly neutral about Vaughan Williams!

I have to say now the loss of your post was totally worth it...just for that last sentence 

Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

I'm Scots 

Mike

I'm American. Scots, Irish, Welsh, English....all the same to me 

Seriously, I take back the Kraut influence but your Froggishness is really apparent now.

Sarge

[Elgarian]

Does that mean all my half baked efforts stand?

Yeah! Result!

Not so fast, Buster!

Blah blah blah William Blake blah blah Parry blah blah Brahms (pish tosh) blah blah Elgar blah blah cowpat blah blah stamp album blah blah Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers blah blah Pre-Raphaelite landscape blah blah roast beef and Yorkshire pudding blah blah characteristic cadences derived from ancient blah blah BLAH!

There. What do you say to THAT!? Eh?

[Scarpia]

Not so fast, Buster!

Blah blah blah William Blake blah blah Parry blah blah Brahms (pish tosh) blah blah Elgar blah blah cowpat blah blah stamp album blah blah Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers blah blah Pre-Raphaelite landscape blah blah roast beef and Yorkshire pudding blah blah characteristic cadences derived from ancient blah blah BLAH!

There. What do you say to THAT!? Eh?

You're saying Windflower doesn't come into it?

[knight66]

Yes the Auld Alliance.....but that was more about trading than bloodlines.

I have no idea what I have in the old bones other than Scots and English. No doubt there must be a right old mix, or to quote the playright....somewhere along the line a bitch got over the wall.

Mike

[Elgarian]

your Froggishness is really apparent now.

Purcell quite often sounds French-ish to me (ignoring the language, I mean - just the music). And when Christie and Les Arts Florissants do Purcell, it sounds French pretty much all the time.

[knight66]

Not so fast, Buster!

Blah blah blah William Blake blah blah Parry blah blah Brahms (pish tosh) blah blah Elgar blah blah cowpat blah blah stamp album blah blah Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers blah blah Pre-Raphaelite landscape blah blah roast beef and Yorkshire pudding blah blah characteristic cadences derived from ancient blah blah BLAH!

There. What do you say to THAT!? Eh?

Yes, you trounced me, as usual. I am totally humiliated. Can I come sit at your feet and learn all the Blah.......and the pish tosh?

YOS

Mike

[Elgarian]

You're saying Windflower doesn't come into it?

I'm glad you asked that. Behind the obvious main points of my post, two other themes 'run', but are never stated explicitly. These are the Enigpompenstance Windflower themes, subtly contained within the blahs; and the closing cadenza of blahs (which some people think, mistakenly, make the post too long) is really a battle for resolution between them, summing up the whole point of the post. Simple really.

[knight66]

You see: Elgarian is a Master; I am just not sure what of. 

Mike

[Scarpia]

I'm glad you asked that. Behind the obvious main points of my post, two other themes 'run', but are never stated explicitly. These are the Enigpompenstance Windflower themes, subtly contained within the blahs; and the closing cadenza of blahs (which some people think, mistakenly, make the post too long) is really a battle for resolution between them, summing up the whole point of the post. Simple really.

I see.  Now I know how classical scholars feel when they remember that the play that came in first, over Oedipus Rex, is lost to posterity, or recall the burning of the library at Alexandria.

However, as long as we have broached the subject of Windflower, do you agree with those who claim that Elgar arrived at that name because of Miss Wortley's infamous flatulence?

[Sergeant Rock]

However, as long as we have broached the subject of Windflower, do you agree with those who claim that Elgar arrived at that name because of Miss Wortley's infamous flatulence?

All my romantic illusions about the Violin Concerto have now been shattered.

Sarge

[Elgarian]

Can I come sit at your feet and learn all the Blah.......and the pish tosh?

Be warned. Mastery of the pish tosh requires 24 hours of tap-dancing to Parry's I Was Glad while simultaneously organising an album of postage stamps based on a Yorkshire Pudding theme. It's not for everyone.

[Elgarian]

do you agree with those who claim that Elgar arrived at that name because of Miss Wortley's infamous flatulence?

Ah, now Miss Wortley was someone else, renowned for her digestive difficulties; but Mrs Wortley (the Windflower) was noted, I believe for never having passed wind in her entire life.

There you go Sarge. All's well again.

[Scarpia]

Ah, now Miss Wortley was someone else, renowned for her digestive difficulties; but Mrs Wortley (the Windflower) was noted, I believe for never having passed wind in her entire life.

If that's true, the Kennedy's interpretation is all wrong.