Ivan Moravec

Started by Zhiliang, July 08, 2008, 08:49:52 AM

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Bogey

Quote from: dirkronk on April 20, 2010, 06:16:22 AM
The Beethoven set from the same source is equally fine. BTW, look in thrift stores and used book & record stores, as well. These sets were quite common at one time, since they were used as come-ons for a Book-of-the-Month Club offshoot via magazine ads. Consequently, like Time-Life sets and others, they appear often enough to be VERY cheap in non-internet venues. Obviously, check surfaces carefully, and while stereo is common and generally to be preferred, don't turn up your nose at mono sets...sonics are pretty darn good on those, too. Here in south Texas, the sets show up for $3 to $5 on a regular basis, occasionally higher. Don't get me wrong, though, Bogey. I definitely think you got your money's worth, especially if your copy's surfaces are good...but whatever you're likely to pay, the Moravec sets are undoubtedly one of the biggest (largely unsung or at least unrecognized) bargains out on the used market.

Cheers,

Dirk

Thanks!  I have the LvB set sealed and waiting for a special occasion to unwrap it.  I was VERY surprised to see actual Connoisseur Society albums in the set.  I thought that they would be a different pressing.  Maybe they came later, but the vinyl is shiny and thick.   I will keep an eye out for the mono set, as that is a preference in most cases for me.
There will never be another era like the Golden Age of Hollywood.  We didn't know how to blow up buildings then so we had no choice but to tell great stories with great characters.-Ben Mankiewicz

dirkronk

Quote from: Bogey on April 20, 2010, 06:01:40 PM
Thanks!  I have the LvB set sealed and waiting for a special occasion to unwrap it.  I was VERY surprised to see actual Connoisseur Society albums in the set.  I thought that they would be a different pressing.  Maybe they came later, but the vinyl is shiny and thick.   I will keep an eye out for the mono set, as that is a preference in most cases for me.

Wow, that IS interesting. When you say "actual Connoisseur Society albums" do you mean they're labeled with that name as the primary ID, probably at 12 o'clock on the label? Or with the name smaller and relegated to a position at 6 o'clock (that's how the ones are in my main sets...I do have other boxes in storage)? Just curious. I checked the runout grooves on my Chopin set (Classics Record Library) and on a couple of single Connoisseur Society albums. The stampers are both marked "Sterling" so they came from the same well-known pressing house, but the CRL set's albums were dated in the vinyl from 1970...stampers made at least four years after initial release of the box set (1966). My guess is that the earlier produced sets may have had stampers from the actual Connoisseur run, and in that case, if vinyl was good quality, you may have a little gem on your hands.

Of course, if they sound good to you, they're already gems. Just sayin'...

Dirk


Bogey

Quote from: dirkronk on April 20, 2010, 06:36:39 PM
Wow, that IS interesting. When you say "actual Connoisseur Society albums" do you mean they're labeled with that name as the primary ID, probably at 12 o'clock on the label? Or with the name smaller and relegated to a position at 6 o'clock (that's how the ones are in my main sets...I do have other boxes in storage)? Just curious. I checked the runout grooves on my Chopin set (Classics Record Library) and on a couple of single Connoisseur Society albums. The stampers are both marked "Sterling" so they came from the same well-known pressing house, but the CRL set's albums were dated in the vinyl from 1970...stampers made at least four years after initial release of the box set (1966). My guess is that the earlier produced sets may have had stampers from the actual Connoisseur run, and in that case, if vinyl was good quality, you may have a little gem on your hands.

Of course, if they sound good to you, they're already gems. Just sayin'...

Dirk

No.  Outstanding memory on your part.  They are at the 6 o'clock position, unlike the Debussy album I have from him which is larger and at 12.
There will never be another era like the Golden Age of Hollywood.  We didn't know how to blow up buildings then so we had no choice but to tell great stories with great characters.-Ben Mankiewicz

dirkronk

Quote from: Bogey on April 20, 2010, 06:41:37 PM
No.  Outstanding memory on your part.  They are at the 6 o'clock position, unlike the Debussy album I have from him which is larger and at 12.

Still, check your runout groove areas when you get a chance and see if you see a date (like: 12-9-70) hand scrawled in the vinyl. Also check the disc number, which SHOULD coincide with the set number UNLESS they used the Connoisseur original stampers. (Can you tell you've got me really curious?)
;D

Dirk

Bogey

Quote from: dirkronk on April 20, 2010, 06:54:48 PM
Still, check your runout groove areas when you get a chance and see if you see a date (like: 12-9-70) hand scrawled in the vinyl. Also check the disc number, which SHOULD coincide with the set number UNLESS they used the Connoisseur original stampers. (Can you tell you've got me really curious?)
;D

Dirk

Here it is for side 1:

SRL 7664 on the label.


Scrawling:

CS 1266A                SRL 7664          ST1               SIDE 1
There will never be another era like the Golden Age of Hollywood.  We didn't know how to blow up buildings then so we had no choice but to tell great stories with great characters.-Ben Mankiewicz

Dancing Divertimentian

#165
Spent a little time today comparing transfers from the two Moravec releases below.

The VAI (first image) is a double-disc set from 1993 containing everything from the single disc Supraphon release from 2001 (second image). So there's much overlap. The value in the VAI lies in the roughly 30 minutes' worth of material (Debussy) as yet not re-released anywhere else (why?).

After not really giving it much thought I thought it might be fun to see just what Supraphon might have been up to transfer-wise since their's was the newer release and VAI perhaps hadn't the transfer muscle of a "major" player like Supraphon (who in general knows its stuff, unlike some other "majors").

But to my surprise the VAI is clearer, cleaner, deeper, and firmer, with a warm spread that nicely captures Moravec's big, pearly tone in all its glory. The Supraphon by comparison is on the one-dimensional side, sort of flat-ish, and not as warm. The difference is enough to get me to wondering...did the masters degrade in the eight years between transfers? Could be, as these were originally recorded in the 60s. In which case, can't blame Supraphon. If it's something else, well, I don't really know for certain and probably shouldn't speculate. 

This wouldn't matter to me so much if it were perhaps any other pianist (save Richter) but Moravec's deeply rich, pearly tone is paramount to his conception of a piece and to have it slighted leaves me cool. I'm glad the VAI came along but I can only hope something better is in store in the future (will VAI give it another go down the road?).

(As an aside, this also raises the question of the quality of transfers on the Chopin Ballads disc. Again there are competing reissues on both VAI and Supraphon. I have the VAI and it's impressively rich and full. I haven't heard the Supraphon.)   

Anyway, no real ground-breaking news here but if ever the chance comes up to grab the VAI it's definitely worth the coin, and not just for the missing Debussy items.






Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

George

Yeah, Don, in the cases where I compared the same performances from VAI and Supraphon (Beethoven and Chopin CDs), the VAI sounded a bit better every time. It's likely a new mastering, which could be another factor in the difference between them.

Dancing Divertimentian

Quote from: George on June 11, 2010, 03:12:07 AM
Yeah, Don, in the cases where I compared the same performances from VAI and Supraphon (Beethoven and Chopin CDs), the VAI sounded a bit better every time. It's likely a new mastering, which could be another factor in the difference between them.

Yeah, transfers will differ from label to label but I was surprised at how much better the older transfer (VAI) sounded! It could be that VAI had first-generation masters to work with while Supraphon perhaps had to settle for something less (second- or third-generation masters). Or the tapes degraded in the eight years between transfers.

Or maybe something else was at work, like different transfer philosophies or some such. But I can't imagine why anyone would want anything different than VAI. ???   

Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

Mandryka

I'm rather dissappointed with Moravec's colourful and rather dreamy  Overgrown Path , and I would still choose Palenicek's rather sharper, more chiseled account as my favourite in this.

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

George

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on June 10, 2010, 10:25:24 PM
The value in the VAI lies in the roughly 30 minutes' worth of material (Debussy) as yet not re-released anywhere else (why?).

Very good question.
Quote
After not really giving it much thought I thought it might be fun to see just what Supraphon might have been up to transfer-wise since their's was the newer release and VAI perhaps hadn't the transfer muscle of a "major" player like Supraphon (who in general knows its stuff, unlike some other "majors").

But to my surprise the VAI is clearer, cleaner, deeper, and firmer, with a warm spread that nicely captures Moravec's big, pearly tone in all its glory. The Supraphon by comparison is on the one-dimensional side, sort of flat-ish, and not as warm.




Yes indeed, the VAI (like all the other Moravec VAIs that I have heard) sounds lovely. A good friend got a copy found me a copy recently (thanks!!!) and I am thoroughly enjoying it right now. I'm in heaven. Not the Bryan Adams kind either, this is the real thing.  0:)

Dancing Divertimentian

Quote from: George on August 30, 2010, 03:42:48 PM
Yes indeed, the VAI (like all the other Moravec VAIs that I have heard) sounds lovely.

Y'know, one thing I can't understand is why the Connoisseur Society doesn't re-release these recordings. They RECORDED them! And obviously the label is still around. I can only imagine that the sound would be optimal from them.
Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

dirkronk

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on September 12, 2010, 07:36:00 PM
Y'know, one thing I can't understand is why the Connoisseur Society doesn't re-release these recordings. They RECORDED them! And obviously the label is still around. I can only imagine that the sound would be optimal from them.

Good question. Just as a guess...maybe they don't want to pull any CD sales away from the current stable of artists (David Allen Wehr for Beethoven, et al). On the other hand, they HAVE re-released the 1964 Martins WTC, some Wilkomirska, Barbosa and others from their old LP-vintage catalog.

That still doesn't answer the Moravec question, of course. Darn. It WOULD be nice for those original E. Alan Silver productions to be reissued on the original label. Few people have ever equaled, let alone surpassed, that guy in recording piano.

Oh...and while at their website: I also noticed that they have a Babayan CD listed that I've somehow managed to overlook before now (how the heck did THAT happen?), so will probably be ordering soon.

Also, has anyone here heard the above-mentioned David Allen Wehr...or any of the other crop of pianists on Connoisseur? And if so, what's the verdict?

Cheers,

Dirk


George

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on September 12, 2010, 07:36:00 PM
Y'know, one thing I can't understand is why the Connoisseur Society doesn't re-release these recordings. They RECORDED them! And obviously the label is still around. I can only imagine that the sound would be optimal from them.

Assuming that they weren't tempted to use Noise Reduction, yes, that would be nice.

Drasko

Quote from: dirkronk on September 13, 2010, 05:07:25 AM
Oh...and while at their website: I also noticed that they have a Babayan CD listed that I've somehow managed to overlook before now (how the heck did THAT happen?), so will probably be ordering soon.

But do they actually have it? It is listed on their website but their ebay store doesn't have it, neither does cduniverse, arkivmusic says backorder and amazon lists only marketplace copies for silly prices. Same goes for the CD that I'm most curious about: Barbosa's Dante Sonata and Schubert/Liszt songs.
Barbosa's Debussy/Milhaud discs seems readily available. Has anyone heard it? If it is even nearly as good as his Chopin Scherzi (now why is that not released on CD?) I'd get it.

Mandryka

Quote from: Drasko on September 13, 2010, 06:27:42 AM
If it is even nearly as good as his Chopin Scherzi (now why is that not released on CD?) I'd get it.

The transfers on youtube make it clear that his secherzos are very exciting – maybe too exciting. He never seems to become intimate and confidential and expansive  like Pogorelich does (Pogo's the benchmark!). All the music  is very clear though – I like that.  But  the sound is so hard: that's probably the fault of the transfer.

I've ripped the sound of a couple of the scherzos  to flac files so I can play them through the hi-fi. Let me know if you want them.

I have his mazurakas – and while they are very fine they have never won a place in my heart. When I do comparative listening– which I've only ever with maybe three or four mazurkas --  he's never shown left me thinking "wow!"
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Drasko

Quote from: Mandryka on September 13, 2010, 10:12:02 AM
I’ve ripped the sound of a couple of the scherzos  to flac files so I can play them through the hi-fi. Let me know if you want them.

I was thinking about doing the same thing but the sound of those youtube clips is just way too fierce. So thanks but I'll skip on that.

Dancing Divertimentian

#176
Quote from: dirkronk on September 13, 2010, 05:07:25 AM
Good question. Just as a guess...maybe they don't want to pull any CD sales away from the current stable of artists (David Allen Wehr for Beethoven, et al).

Good point. OTOH, it just occurred to me that CS might just be enjoying all the royalties from Supraphon since Supraphon's distribution prowess must be enormous, especially all the way over there in Europe. 

QuoteIt WOULD be nice for those original E. Alan Silver productions to be reissued on the original label. Few people have ever equaled, let alone surpassed, that guy in recording piano.

Those Moravec/Silver recordings - even on VAI - are mightily impressive (haven't heard the original LPs). Some of the finest piano recordings around, no matter what the vintage.

QuoteAlso, has anyone here heard the above-mentioned David Allen Wehr...or any of the other crop of pianists on Connoisseur? And if so, what's the verdict?

Of the current generation I have only Pamela Ross's 1991 Schumann disc, latterly listed on 88 Carat Records, though, not on CS (mine is on CS). I find she is a very talented player, fully worthy of the composer. I hold off giving her an unreserved recommendation only on account of the somewhat smallish sound she produces - which is nothing someone else might just absolutely adore, however (it is perfectly entertaining, though - and her dexterity in the intricate, knotty bits is amazing). Gramophone too had good things to say about this disc, it even made it into their 1999 Good CD Guide.

As you'd expect, the E. Alan Silver sonics are excellent.

(The cover threw me until I realized this is the Carnival of Vienna after all. :)):
Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

Dancing Divertimentian

Quote from: George on September 13, 2010, 05:23:34 AM
Assuming that they weren't tempted to use Noise Reduction, yes, that would be nice.

I HOPE they wouldn't be so stupid... ???
Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

George

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on September 13, 2010, 07:59:23 PM
I HOPE they wouldn't be so stupid... ???

I am seeing it time and time again these days, often on stuff that isn't even that old.  :-[

Dancing Divertimentian

Quote from: George on September 13, 2010, 08:03:30 PM
I am seeing it time and time again these days, often on stuff that isn't even that old.  :-[

Wow, big sigh..............
Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach