Elliott Carter, 1908-2012

[snyprrr]

I'm going to go for Aimard's NF. Any objections?

Picked up the Aimard and the original Juilliard set (w/Duo). Said no to the Violin Cto. for the moment (might not last the day).

[Mandryka]

4th Quartet fixation

Well I got the Pacifica set and have been exploring it 

Strangely enough, I've become sort of fixated on the 4th Quartet. For the last few days, I've had to listen to it every day. It's hard work, but it keeps pulling me back. There's a fascinating contrast between music that is fragmented and music that is concentrated and even mystical-sounding, like a trance state. (I see Edward above doesn't much like this 4tet. I wonder why.)

I also really dig the 3rd Quartet. Much to my surprise, as this is the one that is supposedly almost impossible to listen to, not to mention to play! I'd read about how off-putting it was, and expected to start listening and then have to give up and put it back on the shelf. But it's hard to not listen when the energy level is this high. By contrast, I find the 2nd Quartet something of a limp noodle.

It's weird how I like these supposedly impossible, hyper-complex Carter pieces at once. Ditto with Night Fantasies, which is supposed to be "forbidding" or whatever, but I liked it right off the bat.

The New York premier of the 4th quartet by The Composers Quartet is on symphonyshare. I think it's wonderful. If you want it and can't get to it then let me know and I'll let you have the files.

I don't think the 4th quartet is so nasty - to use snyprr's word. In the end all the voices are singing the same song! I can see the connection between the quartet and Night Fantasies. For Night Fantasies I like Rosen very much.

Anyway the 4th quartet is no more nasty than Gotterdammerung. Or Beckett's Happy Days.

[amw]

4th Quartet fixation

Well I got the Pacifica set and have been exploring it 

Strangely enough, I've become sort of fixated on the 4th Quartet. For the last few days, I've had to listen to it every day. It's hard work, but it keeps pulling me back. There's a fascinating contrast between music that is fragmented and music that is concentrated and even mystical-sounding, like a trance state. (I see Edward above doesn't much like this 4tet. I wonder why.)

I also really dig the 3rd Quartet. Much to my surprise, as this is the one that is supposedly almost impossible to listen to, not to mention to play! I'd read about how off-putting it was, and expected to start listening and then have to give up and put it back on the shelf. But it's hard to not listen when the energy level is this high. By contrast, I find the 2nd Quartet something of a limp noodle.

It's weird how I like these supposedly impossible, hyper-complex Carter pieces at once. Ditto with Night Fantasies, which is supposed to be "forbidding" or whatever, but I liked it right off the bat.

Along with the 1st, I found the 4th one of the most appealing on first listen. (Almost "accessible" with all those big dramatic gestures! ) It's the 2nd and 3rd I've never warmed to so much; through repeated listening I think I now understand the 2nd, but I don't exactly like it very much. The 5th is somewhere in the middle.

[Mandryka]

Picked up the Aimard and the original Juilliard set (w/Duo). Said no to the Violin Cto. for the moment (might not last the day).

It's quite a late recording, that Juilliard set. I have never got much out of it, I find the performances sometimes too nervous (the first movement of 4 is an example.) There's an LP of The Juilliard playing 2 and 3 with their first lineup which is outstanding - again I can upload it for you if you want.

[Mandryka]

Picked up the Aimard and the original Juilliard set (w/Duo). Said no to the Violin Cto. for the moment (might not last the day).

I just listened to Aimard playing Night Fantasies. It's so delicate and tasteful and restrained and colourful and  beautiful, gossamer light in parts, like Meddelssohn or something. Fairies dancing. I kept thinking that if Murray Perrahia were to play Night Fantasies, this is what it would sound like. It's as if Aimard sounds like he's trying not to hurt his fingers.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

I don't think the 4th quartet is so nasty - to use snyprr's word. In the end all the voices are singing the same song!

In fact I was thinking more of the 3rd Quartet, which does have a "nasty" reputation, but to me it seemed fairly comprehensible and full of interesting noises, not to mention a powerhouse of energy.

It's the 2nd and 3rd I've never warmed to so much; through repeated listening I think I now understand the 2nd, but I don't exactly like it very much.

I don't much like the 2nd either. Compared to the others, it seems kind of under-powered and passionless, like an exercise of some kind. That's a common reaction I have to those Carter pieces I don't much like.

[snyprrr]

It's quite a late recording, that Juilliard set. I have never got much out of it, I find the performances sometimes too nervous (the first movement of 4 is an example.) There's an LP of The Juilliard playing 2 and 3 with their first lineup which is outstanding - again I can upload it for you if you want.

Just been playing 2-4 from the Juilliards. No.3- when I say "nasty", I mean in the "nasty redhead" kind of way! Let's say "thorny"- it certainly is the densest thing on four legs. And here let me state

CARTER SOUNDS JUST LIKE FERNEYHOUGH? (I mean, excuse me, 'New Complexity'?- if there's anything that's fully formed NewComp it's Carter's 3rd SQ- am I wrong?) Maybe Ferneyhough prefers single movements, and has more cool sound effects, but, what's the dif here? Elliott Carter is the Father of the New Complexity?

No.2 seems like if Webern had continued Composing? Thoughts?

No.4, in the traditional four movements, seems to me like what was going on in the '80s. Remember that Emerson disc of Wernick, Harbison, and Schuller? Carter's 4th would have fit right there. Mel Powell. Babbitt. All these cats were writing at the height of this particular style in the '80s, just before they all started getting old and and mellowing out just a little. I mean, No.4 is NOT as complex as No.3 (and No.5 less than 4), but it IS abrasive and wooly in parts, though, I sense a highly burnished brass quality- I can see why soandso got caught up in it for days.

But, 2-5 reveal a Composer of the New Complexity (as I've listened to this Juilliard set as if for the first time) to me. No.2 sounds quaint. No.3 I finally got. And No.4 will be getting some more attention.

SQ No.5

So then I pulled out the Arditti/Montaigne disc. No.5 seems to speak for itself to me- what's there to say? Carter is a Major Composer here- old- and can write anything he wants- and out pops No.5. Why analyze?

btw- I like Oppens better in '90+' than Aimard, and Oppens/Arditti totally nail the Duo (1974) whilst Oldfather/Mann's recording isn't as good as the SQs, and they seem a little more outside the music than the Arditti clan. (Arditti shaves off @2mins.)

I just listened to Aimard playing Night Fantasies. It's so delicate and tasteful and restrained and colourful and  beautiful, gossamer light in parts, like Meddelssohn or something. Fairies dancing. I kept thinking that if Murray Perrahia were to play Night Fantasies, this is what it would sound like. It's as if Aimard sounds like he's trying not to hurt his fingers.

Yea, I don't really know if I actually LIKE 'Night Fantasies', but I love what I'm hearing HERE! Yea, he's quite the tinkler here, and, of course, the Teldec sound envelopes the proceedings. Carter's procedure is laid out bare and exposed on the piano, and one hears the 'modulatory' quality- the mercurial quality of Carter's rhythm very clearly here. Aimard is just so good here- reminds me of that old Boulez No.1 on Erato. It just seems like one of those perfect Avant Piano Pieces in One Movement- BA Zimmermann? The New Complexity!

[Mandryka]

Just been playing 2-4 from the Juilliards. No.3- when I say "nasty", I mean in the "nasty redhead" kind of way! Let's say "thorny"- it certainly is the densest thing on four legs. And here let me state

CARTER SOUNDS JUST LIKE FERNEYHOUGH? (I mean, excuse me, 'New Complexity'?- if there's anything that's fully formed NewComp it's Carter's 3rd SQ- am I wrong?) Maybe Ferneyhough prefers single movements, and has more cool sound effects, but, what's the dif here? Elliott Carter is the Father of the New Complexity?

No.2 seems like if Webern had continued Composing? Thoughts?

No.4, in the traditional four movements, seems to me like what was going on in the '80s. Remember that Emerson disc of Wernick, Harbison, and Schuller? Carter's 4th would have fit right there. Mel Powell. Babbitt. All these cats were writing at the height of this particular style in the '80s, just before they all started getting old and and mellowing out just a little. I mean, No.4 is NOT as complex as No.3 (and No.5 less than 4), but it IS abrasive and wooly in parts, though, I sense a highly burnished brass quality- I can see why soandso got caught up in it for days.

But, 2-5 reveal a Composer of the New Complexity (as I've listened to this Juilliard set as if for the first time) to me. No.2 sounds quaint. No.3 I finally got. And No.4 will be getting some more attention.

SQ No.5

So then I pulled out the Arditti/Montaigne disc. No.5 seems to speak for itself to me- what's there to say? Carter is a Major Composer here- old- and can write anything he wants- and out pops No.5. Why analyze?

btw- I like Oppens better in '90+' than Aimard, and Oppens/Arditti totally nail the Duo (1974) whilst Oldfather/Mann's recording isn't as good as the SQs, and they seem a little more outside the music than the Arditti clan. (Arditti shaves off @2mins.)


Yea, I don't really know if I actually LIKE 'Night Fantasies', but I love what I'm hearing HERE! Yea, he's quite the tinkler here, and, of course, the Teldec sound envelopes the proceedings. Carter's procedure is laid out bare and exposed on the piano, and one hears the 'modulatory' quality- the mercurial quality of Carter's rhythm very clearly here. Aimard is just so good here- reminds me of that old Boulez No.1 on Erato. It just seems like one of those perfect Avant Piano Pieces in One Movement- BA Zimmermann? The New Complexity!

Re the Aimard Night Fantasies, what I missed most was the sense of physical pianism, strength, that I hear in Rosen and in Stephen Drury's magnificent performance. I need to listen again to Oppens, there are two different ones from Oppens on spotify. What you say about the quartets is interesting, thanks, I need to think about it. But right now I'm really intrigued by the end of SQ4 -- positive or negative? Do the voices start to get reconciled, become friends and even sing a song together?

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

No.2 seems like if Webern had continued Composing? Thoughts?

I had never thought of it that way, but it could be productive. I'll come back to the 2nd after immersing myself in the others, and see if I hear any posthumous Webern in it. (Damn that soldier!)

I mean, No.4 is NOT as complex as No.3 (and No.5 less than 4), but it IS abrasive and wooly in parts, though, I sense a highly burnished brass quality- I can see why soandso got caught up in it for days.

"soandso" does like that "burnished" quality. But what attracts even more is this notion of a quartet based on "fragmented" versus "solid" musics. And the sense that there's a lot to explore under the surface.

[snyprrr]

Re the Aimard Night Fantasies, what I missed most was the sense of physical pianism, strength, that I hear in Rosen and in Stephen Drury's magnificent performance. I need to listen again to Oppens, there are two different ones from Oppens on spotify. What you say about the quartets is interesting, thanks, I need to think about it. But right now I'm really intrigued by the end of SQ4 -- positive or negative? Do the voices start to get reconciled, become friends and even sing a song together?

I listened to the end of SQ4. I'll put just this side of negative- kind of ghostly, tentative, unsure,... but maybe they're saying, Wait till next time? However, the word "song" threw me, 'cause- well- maybe.... mm.... errr... I hear that they're "trying to be nice"- then there's a couple of final outbursts, then it sort of fades...

[Mandryka]

When the texture changes it does seem quite lyrical to me, though clearly it's very unstable. It's not a totally negative view on life at the end there, for sure.

[snyprrr]

When the texture changes it does seem quite lyrical to me, though clearly it's very unstable. It's not a totally negative view on life at the end there, for sure.

No, that's what it sounds like when Avant Composers ARE happy! haha- that's the best they can do to get sentimental "Did you hear the irony in that cluster?"

[Mandryka]

I think this is interesting. Can you be an avant garde composer and write happy music, more than 50 years after the war? Schönberg did.

[not edward]

I think this is interesting. Can you be an avant garde composer and write happy music, more than 50 years after the war? Schönberg did.

I would say many of the works Carter wrote after Symphonia answer your question with an unqualified 'yes'.

The Boston Concerto and Flute Concerto would be good examples.

[snyprrr]

Symphony of 3 Orchestras (1976)

Carter's best 15 minutes? I'm really enjoying this hidden gem.

[bhodges]

For Juilliard, my piece on the Juilliard String Quartet's latest release: all five quartets by Elliott Carter. The first four are re-releases, but the recording of the Fifth Quartet is new.

http://www.juilliard.edu/journal/1410/discoveries

--Bruce

[not edward]

I'm told there's a new recording of Catenaires out, from a somewhat unlikely source: Bruce Hornsby.

Yes, that Bruce Hornsby.

[Karl Henning]

That's just the way it is.

[not edward]

I was going to post that song title in the thread, but left it for a range of other people to do.

On a more Carterian note, I've been listening to his last orchestral work, Instances, which appears on a Seattle Symphony disc with Ives' second symphony and Gershwin's An American in Paris. (I'm not sure this is the greatest programming ever, but at least the Carter is available separately as a download.)

[asin]B00IXWIHIO[/asin]

It's effectively a series of miniatures (some of which seem oddly reminiscent of mid-period Lutoslawski) played without a break. About two thirds of the way through it rises to a violent climax, followed by an slow epilogue, marked by single piano notes, which I can only describe as 'elegiac.' Not a major piece, but stronger than I thought it was on first listen.

[not edward]

Good to see a second recording of Symphonia coming out at the end of the month. The coupling seems quite apt to me.



Conductors are Emilio Pomàrico in the Carter and Stefan Asbury in the Ives.