Elliott Carter, 1908-2012

Started by bwv 1080, April 07, 2007, 09:08:12 AM

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karlhenning

Quote from: Al Moritz on January 06, 2008, 02:52:30 PM
But Karl, hadn't you enjoyed the Symphonia live performance by the Boston Symphony 2 or 3 years ago?

I had, Al, indeed;  but more from the standpoint of admiring the feat of performance, than the piece per se.

karlhenning

Quote from: paulb on January 11, 2008, 12:24:34 PM
Dvorak is old history.

Well, nothing wrong with that, as such :-)

paulb

Quote from: Corey on January 11, 2008, 08:30:39 AM
Well, if they don't impress with 30-second clips they are probably worthless. ;D

No actually I plan to give more than a  minute clip for Rihm and Fennyhough.
My standards are pretty tough to make the grade to CM status.
Most late 20th C muisc falls into what i tag as Modern Instrumental, New Age Instrumental. And i just now realize that the above mentioned 5 compoers fall into Classical Music Tradition Genre, so now all others I consider avant garde.
IOW Carter to me is not avant garde, as its uniquely Classical Music. Boulez may get most of his works into this genre, I've yet to order that 4 cds set, my hunch so far based on 3 short pieces on Youtube, that in fact Boulz has masterpieces worthy of that specific genre the history books call Classical Muisc.
Lutoslawski, Penderecki, you call these 2 classical composers? why? I see no reason to misinterpret their music  as something other tha  what it is.
Ligeti? Classical Muisc? Absoluetly not!

paulb

Quote from: karlhenning on January 11, 2008, 12:33:14 PM
Well, nothing wrong with that, as such :-)

Nothing at all, just keep within reason the nature of his music, as old form, nothing to offer in todays world.
So instead of programming Dvorak at concerts, radio, lets hear some Elliot Carter and much much less from Dvorak.
For everytime Dvorak is programmed at a  concert we should see Carter 10 times on the schedule.
See my point, there;'s only so many composers can be covered in one season. Why push Carter aside for old dusty music like Dvorak?

Elliot Carter is america's only classical composer, with Ives as runner up and 2 masterpieces from Ruggles.
David Diamond is NOTHING BUT rehashed Vaughan Williams and overly strong flavors from Copland. Nothing too exceptional  about mimicing other composers, now it there?

Joe Barron

#304
Quote from: paulb on January 11, 2008, 12:46:07 PM
So instead of programming Dvorak at concerts, radio, lets hear some Elliot Carter and much much less from Dvorak.
For everytime Dvorak is programmed at a  concert we should see Carter 10 times on the schedule.
Agreed!  ;D

Quote from: paulb on January 11, 2008, 12:46:07 PM
Elliot Carter is america's only classical composer, with Ives as runner up and 2 masterpieces from Ruggles.

Well, this puzzles me. If Carter is America's only classical composer, how can there be a runner up? Or two? And I would think the criticism of Copland also applies to Ives: the nonclassical use of folk music, if nonclassical it is, which it isn't.  ???

Anyway, we're off topic here. This thread is about Elliott Carter, and I'd appreciate moving extended criticism of Copland et al. elsewhere. Some big big Carter concerts coming up in the next couple of weeks, and I want to save my strength.  ;)

paulb

Quote from: Joe Barron on January 11, 2008, 01:24:29 PM
Agreed!  ;D

Well, this puzzles me. If Carter is America's only classical composer, how can there be a runner up? Or two? And I would think the criticism of Copland also applies to Ives: the nonclassical use of folk music, if nonclassical it is, which it isn't.  ???

Anyway, we're off topic here. This thread is about Elliott Carter, and I'd appreciate moving extended criticism of Copland et al. elsewhere. Some big big Carter concerts coming up in the next couple of weeks, and I want to save my strength.  ;)

runner up I realize was not the appropriate expression.
I maen to say that for me, only Carter is a  classical composer, worthy of the genre began with bach and Vivaldi.
Agree Copland is folk, Ives too.
Rarely listen to Ives much these days, if ever.

Back to Carter,
We yet await 10 masterpieces score in his 96-99th yr. Correct me if i;'m wrong on any numbers there, Thats what i recall arriving at.
10!! masterpieces. Artists have much work to do. hopefully we do not have to wait yrs to hear them, Although it will take me yrs to work through waht already has made it to disc.
Elliot Carter stands unique in my entire collection. Not a  dud in all his works, all first rate creative classical. 

Joe Barron

Quote from: paulb on January 11, 2008, 02:07:25 PMElliot Carter stands unique in my entire collection. Not a  dud in all his works, all first rate creative classical. 

I like where you're coming from.  :)

paulb

Quote from: Joe Barron on January 11, 2008, 02:13:16 PM
I like where you're coming from.  :)

Joe
The only cd I'm missing is that new Naxos with his 2 early works, a  sym and...oh post the cd, you know it.
Someone over at amazon mentioned it is one of his favorites from Carter, has this exhiliaration that always satisfies. I have it on order today. Dates from the early 50's?
So like 40 yrs later Carter is still scoring masterpieces, start to fininsh! Europe has produced no one to match Elliott Carter since the passing of Pettersson. Carter unlike say Shostakovich who speaks a russian flavor, Schnittke a  russian/novo german style, Carter  might be classed as 3rd generation viennese, yet has no sense of boundaries.. Well it would be difficult to imagine the muisc like Carter's comming out of russia, too much supression of the human spirit. Europe has too many hangups, too much agitations in the land post WW2.
See it took the beauty of upstate NY and northeast mid century to give Carter the space to make his creative expressions work out as they did.
Ahh i like this insight, I 'm just freewheeling thoughts , what ever comes. But I'd bet Carter would agree, that time and place affect the human mind to bring to brith more or  worse  senario, less than the possible.
I've seen a  few photos of Carter chillin in his early yrs, and he looks quite laid back and yet determined. Genius blazes from his eyes and face.
I have a  ancedote for later....
I have like 20 cds of Carter and there's not one work I do not love. I gladly reach for any Carter cd. Can't say that about any other composer.
I would hope The Composers Quartet decides to finish their cycle in Carter, we need their take on sq's 3 and 4.

Later
paul
I'll read through the posts here. much to catch up on.
yeah and you the biggest Elliott Carter fan  was YOU  ;)
But you definetly get the prez spot. ;D

Joe Barron

#308
Quote from: paulb on January 11, 2008, 03:14:25 PM
Joe
The only cd I'm missing is that new Naxos with his 2 early works, a  sym and...oh post the cd, you know it.

You must mean the Naxos disk with Symphony No. 1 and the Piano Concerto, with Mark Wait on piano and Kenneth Schermerhorn (how we miss him) conducting the Nashville Symphony. The Symphony is from Carter's neo-classical period and dates from about 1940. The Piano Concerto, a fully mature work, was written in 1964-65. The earliest works Carter has not withdrawn are from the mid-30s, so his career has lasted just about 70 years. The great Cello Sonata, the first true transition to the mature style, was written 60 years ago this year. Time scales become Einsteinian when one talks about Mr. Carter.

The Composers Quartet recorded the third and fourth quartets years ago, but unfortunately the recordings have been out of print for some time now. I have both, and they're terrific. The recording of the Fourth is, I believe, the best done so far, though I will have to hear the Pacifica's version on Naxos later this year.

I undertsand what you mean when you call Carter a third-generaton Viennese. Charles Rosen uses the term  "international" to describe Carter's style. (He has also used the term to descibe Mozart.) I would add, though, that Carter is Viennese only in the sense that he's atonal. He sounds nothing like Schoenberg or Webern, he's not a serialist, and his technique of layering sounds derives more from Ives than anyone else. 

The Prez  ;D

Guido

I think paulb might be mental.
Geologist.

The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away

Wendell_E

#310
Sorry I didn't notice/post this earlier, but in about 10 minutes (Saturday, 2:30 pm, Eastern Time) RAI's Radio 3 will be broadcasting a concert that'll include the Italian premieres of the Boston Concerto and What Next?:

QuoteIl Cartellone: RAI NUOVA MUSICA
In diretta dall'Auditorium Rai Arturo Toscanini di Torino
Orchestra Sinfonica Nazionale della RAI
direttore, Peter Rundel
Elliott Carter
Boston Concerto (2002) per orchestra
(prima esecuzione italiana)
---------------------------------------------
WHAT NEXT?
Opera in un atto su libretto di Paul Griffiths
musica di Elliott Carter
(prima esecuzione italiana)
Rose, Christine Buffle
Harry o Larry, Dean Elzinga
Mama, Sarah Leonard
Zen, William Joyner
Stella, Hilary Summers
Kid (voce bianca), dal Tölzer Knaben Chor
Orchestra Sinfonica Nazionale della RAI
direttore, Peter Rundel (3 hrs., 30 min.)
"Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." ― Mark Twain

karlhenning

paul, I had no idea you were such a Carter fan.

Laissez les bons temps rouler!

paulb

Quote from: Joe Barron on January 12, 2008, 08:41:38 AM
You must mean the Naxos disk with Symphony No. 1 and the Piano Concerto, with Mark Wait on piano and Kenneth Schermerhorn (how we miss him) conducting the Nashville Symphony. The Symphony is from Carter's neo-classical period and dates from about 1940. The Piano Concerto, a fully mature work, was written in 1964-65. The earliest works Carter has not withdrawn are from the mid-30s, so his career has lasted just about 70 years. The great Cello Sonata, the first true transition to the mature style, was written 60 years ago this year. Time scales become Einsteinian when one talks about Mr. Carter.

The Composers Quartet recorded the third and fourth quartets years ago, but unfortunately the recordings have been out of print for some time now. I have both, and they're terrific. The recording of the Fourth is, I believe, the best done so far, though I will have to hear the Pacifica's version on Naxos later this year.

I undertsand what you mean when you call Carter a third-generaton Viennese. Charles Rosen uses the term  "international" to describe Carter's style. (He has also used the term to descibe Mozart.) I would add, though, that Carter is Viennese only in the sense that he's atonal. He sounds nothing like Schoenberg or Webern, he's not a serialist, and his technique of layering sounds derives more from Ives than anyone else. 

The Prez  ;D

Great post Joe, in describing what Carter;s style.. Thats why i said 3rd gen viennese, because its beyond second viennese modality, yet certainly its closest to Schonberg.
Rosen 's term "international" lines up exactly with my sentiment. I use the term universal composer also.

One review on amazon mentions the 1st sym and Holiday, as " Ivesian" which i figure would be there, as Ives was part of his development.  Its unlikely i ;ll get the cd,  just for the pc.

WOW then the Composers Q did record 3 and 4 sq's. !!! i must have that cd!!! absolute.

http://www.amazon.com/Carter-Concerto-Symphony-Holiday-Overture/dp/B000QQUNGE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dmusic&qid=1200186316&sr=1-1

paulb

#313
Quote from: karlhenning on January 12, 2008, 02:50:04 PM
paul, I had no idea you were such a Carter fan.

Laissez les bons temps rouler!

Yes Karl, how ya been?

I have yrs to work through all the second viennese masters works, if not a  lifetime, what remains.
Then along comes Carter into my experience. You guys have the musical training and education to listen to carter and see all the structures and nuances clearly. Whereas a neophyte as i am, Carter blows my mind at every listen. I just can't seem to grasp the music, too overwhleming. So I am content to listening over and over same piece. Maybe thats a  good thing about not having a  savvy musical mind like you guys, the music can appear to me as fresh each listen. Take Symphonia: Sum Fluxae Pretium Spei. There's zillions of things transpiring non stop. Way too many inter-relations that always escape my attention span, as soon as i grasp one detail, along comes another and then I am at a loss in remembering the first nuance. Difficult for me to make any real successful concentrated effort. So what i do, is just sit back and do what karl suggests,
"let the good times roll"
Trust me i'm not complaining about his complexities, makes life worth the living, challenges the listener.

Joe , how many yrs do you suspect we have to wait for the last 10 masterpieces from carter, yrs 2003-2007. I think its these yrs there are like 10  works, which have not been recorded.

Listening to Clarinet Concerto. Do i detect a  very strong resemblance to Varese.
Varese to me is interesting at times, others pieces not, i am glad to see Varese arise anew in Carter's CC.

Mark G. Simon

#314
Sunday a week ago I saw the New York Chamber Soloists in a free concert at the National Gallery of Art. The program included a performance of Esprit Rude/Esprit Doux with flutist Jennifer Grim and clarinetist Allen Blustine. Their technique is very fluid. All the notey passages undulated like the motions of a snake. And they made the most of the passages where two voices are contained in one instrument, for instance on the 2nd from last page where they're both scrambling but a recurring fifth space E is emphasized. The emphasized notes were put strongly in the foreground and the other notes distinctly in the background. Unfortunately, in this reverberent space, the background notes were mostly lost. Also lost were the powerful difference tones produced by the two instruments in the section with long sustained notes. But any shortcomings were because of the acoustics of the space, not the performers, who were excellent.

The rest of the program contained a Soanta for flute, oboe, violin, viola and continuo by Vivaldi, the Mozart Piano Quartet in E flat, a Caprice on Danish and Russian Airs by Saint-Saëns, and a piece for narrator and ensemble called The Chess Game by Gerald Fried, whom I've never heard of. Apparently he's written a lot of film and TV music.

paulb

#315
Quote from: Mark G. Simon on January 13, 2008, 06:32:32 AM
Sunday a week ago I saw the New York Chamber Soloists in a free concert at the National Gallery of Art. The program included a performance of Esprit Rude/Esprit Doux with flutist Jennifer Grim and clarinetist Allen Blustine. Their technique is very fluid. All the notey passages undulated like the motions of a snake. And they made the most of the passages where two voices are contained in one instrument, for instance on the 2nd from last page where they're both scrambling but a recurring fifth space E is emphasized. The emphasized notes were put strongly in the foreground and the other notes distinctly in the background. Unfortunately, in this reverberent space, the background notes were mostly lost. Also lost were the powerful difference tones produced by the two instruments in the section with long sustained notes. But any shortcomings were because of the acoustics of the space, not the performers, who were excellent.

The rest of the program contained a Soanta for flute, oboe, violin, viola and continuo by Vivaldi, the Mozart Piano Quartet in E flat, a Caprice on Danish and Russian Airs by Saint-Saëns, and a piece for narrator and ensemble called The Chess Game by Gerald Fried, whom I've never heard of. Apparently he's written a lot of film and TV music.

Mark
Had i been there I may have not grasped these nuances you mentioned, the background notes being swamped out by the primary 2 instruments. Can't say for sure if I would  have  or not noticed. I would have just been all caught up in the thrills of having attended my first experience of any work of Carter in concert. You know when i see various performances on Arts Showcase or Youtube clips featuring works by ravel, Boulez Bartok, many others, the camera is shot on various instruments when they are being played with the softest of notes and fade out gentle. ONE CA"T HEAR THEM...Frustrating. And also the beautiful harp section in Sibelius Sym 1, one can barely pick the harp up in some recordings, others the bold brass drowns out the gentle harp notes. I wonder how many know about the fact there is a  harp in the 1st, and the extent of its beautiful sweeping passages. Hearing the sym live may change ones opinion of the work, to a  higher regard for the work. Ravel's Daphnis is loaded to the hilt with nuances all over the score, and many are missed due to GIGANTIC cresendos that Ravel is noteworthy for. .
No one can imagine the music we all miss due to recording /improper mic issues. yeah i know you can't place a  mic right next to the harp or kettle drums, flutes,  when they just softly  enter of exit, as this would make these notes too forward and not project the right balance of where they fit in the score, too forward. But engineers need to know how to use the sound mixing board so to bring up the vol on certain mics at places where the subtlest nuances enter in. Nothing simple, but they are suppose to be RECORDING ENGINEERS.
I'd make a  good recording engineer, I'm a  stickler for getting things right.
Can you imagine how much subilities we all miss by not being up front row seat on many compositions that have these delicate soft passages.
There are riches yet to be heard in Ravel's Daphnis yet requires close to front seating.

So New York city, bringing Carter to stage. New York is alive. And free! Now thats a  cultural center for the common man.

Give us any more impressions you may haveof the Esprit Rude/Esprit Doux. If there are other thoughts you have. I will listen careful to the work today, see at what place you are refering to, how the recording captures that background.

Paul

(poco) Sforzando

Quote from: Joe Barron on December 24, 2007, 08:18:22 AM
Well, now we know who will be playing the Cello Concerto next month:

From The Fairbanks Daily News-Miner

Young Fairbanks musician wins Juilliard School Concerto Competition
By Dermot Cole
Staff Writer
Published December 24, 2007

American composer Elliott Carter told an interviewer in 2001 that he wrote the complex score for "Elliott Carter's Cello Concerto" with cellist Yo-Yo Ma in mind.

The New York Times said the piece is "like a soliloquy for cello with orchestral commentary" that features "formidably complex rhythmic writing."

Carter, who just turned 99, is to be honored in February at the Focus! Festival in New York City with performances of his music.

Fairbanksan Dane Johansen, who is a graduate student at Juilliard, has been unanimously selected by a panel of judges to play Elliott Carter's Cello Concerto at the concluding concert of the festival.

Johansen won the Juilliard School Concerto Competition Dec. 14 and is to perform with the Juilliard Orchestra in Lincoln Center, conducted by James Levine, conductor of the Boston Symphony Orchestra.

The cello department at Juilliard has been "pleading for Carter's Cello Concerto as a competition piece," Joel Sachs of Juilliard wrote in the Juilliard Journal Online, but "no conductor had agreed to do it."

In part that is because not many cellists play this concerto. The total has roughly doubled recently because of Johansen and the other students who learned it to enter the Juilliard competition.

The son of Gail and Tony Johansen, Dane said he is very excited at the chance to work with Carter and Levine, two legends in American music. Carter is scheduled to attend rehearsals and the performance.

Johansen is finishing his master's degree in cello performance at Juilliard. He was 16 when he began studying at the Cleveland Institute of Music and has also received training at the National Conservatory in Paris.

He started learning the cello under the instruction of Peggy Swartz, who was one of the first Suzuki Method teachers in Alaska. He also studied in the Fairbanks School of Talent Education, the Fairbanks Youth Orchestras and the public school orchestras.


Very disappointingly, this concert may be impossible for the general public to attend. Free tickets went on sale 1/11 and were available only if you could get to the Juilliard box office in person from 11-6 on weekdays. Even though I came into NYC on Saturday 1/12 and tried calling the box office on Monday, this exclusionary policy effectively shuts out anyone like myself who lives outside Manhattan. By 1/14 tickets were all gone, and the only possible way to get in is to stand on a standby line 1-2 hours before the concert.

Well, there's always Tanglewood.
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

bhodges

Quote from: Sforzando on January 18, 2008, 07:30:28 AM
Very disappointingly, this concert may be impossible for the general public to attend. Free tickets went on sale 1/11 and were available only if you could get to the Juilliard box office in person from 11-6 on weekdays. Even though I came into NYC on Saturday 1/12 and tried calling the box office on Monday, this exclusionary policy effectively shuts out anyone like myself who lives outside Manhattan. By 1/14 tickets were all gone, and the only possible way to get in is to stand on a standby line 1-2 hours before the concert.

Well, there's always Tanglewood.

No, no--do try on the day of the concert.  Yes, you have to stand in a standby line for maybe an hour, but you should be able to get in if you arrive by 7:00.  I have been going to Focus! for years, rarely get tickets in advance and have never been able to "not get in."  (Granted, these were not concerts with Boulez and Levine, either.)  But seriously, the hall seats almost 1,000 people, and even with all the free tickets given out, people who get them often don't use them, and there are usually plenty of seats for those waiting outside. 

--Bruce

Joe Barron

#318
And if you do go, Sforzando, please seek out Bruce and me and introduce yourself. Bruce did manage to get tickets, so we'll definitely be there. We'll be the tall, good-looking ones.

Ursula Oppens plays the piano music

Last night I attended a wonderful recital by Ursula Oppens at Symphony Space, 95th and Broadway. Ms. Oppens played what, when she was planning it last year, she called a program of Mr. Carter's complete piano music. She was premature. In the past year, Mr. Carter has written two more brief solo works — Ma-tribute and Two Thoughts About the Piano — that Miss Oppens did not perform. The former was written for James Levine, and no one else has taken it up yet, and the latter still awaits its premiere.

Still, the recital was exciting enough. Miss Oppens gave a typically awesome reading of Night Fantasies, and she ended with Caténaires, a piece from 2006 that until this year was performed exclusively by Pierre Laurent Aimard. It's an unusual work for Carter in that it consists of a single mood and idea with no contrasting passages. A catenary is the "curve made by a freely flexible chain or cord when hanging between two fixed points" (Webster's New World). Carter explains that the title refers to "a continuous chain of notes using different spacings accents and colorings."  The work is a perpetual motion machine constructed entirely of rapid runs of notes and no chords. It has a bright, jazzy feel to it, and it should become familiar at contemporary music concerts as a closer or an encore. If any music of Mr. Carter can be described as a tow-tapper, this is it. The effect is almost minimalistic, except the patterns are not repeated literally, as they are in minimalism. It's so catchy and energetic that it's hard to believe it was the work of a 97-year-old man.

Though unusual, as I've said, the piece is not unique in Carter's output. It reminded me of the fourth etude in the composer's Eight Etudes and fantasy for wind quartet, which is a similar kind of mosaic built on iterations of a single idea. The basic unit is a rising half steps played as two eighth notes, followed by a rest. That's it. There are no counter subjects, no shift in tempo, but the units are combined with great variety, sometimes sounding together, sometimes one after another, sometimes overlapping.

Carter was present, and at the end of the evening he walked down the aisle and stood in front of the stage, where Miss Oppens joined him. The audience gave them a standing ovation, which has become a custom when the composer is in attendance. The applause went on and on.  It was obvious we wanted an encore. Carter began gesturing toward the piano as if to say, "Play it again." Miss Oppens declined. I had been sitting in the front row, center, and she passed me as crossed the stage again, heading for the wings. I repeated Carter's gesture of waving toward the piano. She shook her head at me, smiling, and said, "No, it's too hard." And she walked off.

Sitting a few feet from the piano, with the pianist's foot at the pedal directly in front of me, I could look up and see unfinished-wood underbody of the instrument. It was charge to sit so close and let the sound strike me, surround me, expand in my head. 

I also enjoyed the performance of Two Diversions. Miss Oppens made the separation of the parts for each hand audible and intelligible. She always takes the great piano sonata a little fast for my taste, but her approach made me realize the stylistic continuity between that piece and the Night Fantasies, written 35 years later. When the pieces are played back to back, Night Fantasies sounds like an abstraction of the sonata. Both pieces emphasize the resonance of the instrument. The Fantasies have all the tonal haze and rapid counterfigures of the Sonata, but with the motifs removed.

This was the first concert of Mr. Carter's music I have attended during his centenary year — that is, since he turned 99 December 11. The celebration has begun.

I should mention, too, I almost didn't make it. It snowed in Philadelphia yesterday afternoon, and traffic out of the city was heavy and slow. I missed my early connection in Trenton, but the trains were running fine, and the later express got me to New York on time. I walked into the theater about two minutes after eight, and fortunately, recital had not begun. A few stragglers like me were still finding their seats.

karlhenning

Quote from: Joe Barron on January 18, 2008, 09:48:18 AM
And if you do go, Sforzando, please seek out Bruce and me and introduce yourself. Bruce did manage to get tickets, so we'll definitely be there. We'll be the tall, good-looking ones.

I gladly confirm that Bruce and Joe will be the most distinguished-looking gents in the theatre.