Elliott Carter, 1908-2012

[(poco) Sforzando]

Although I have certainly heard Mozart's influence on Beethoven, it has never occurred to me that Beethoven wrote Mozart's most characteristic work, not even "as though."

I suggest a reading of Bloom's (very short) book, which introduces many original and provocative approaches to the concept of "influence."

[karlhenning]

I wonder what may have influenced his original and provocative approaches . . . .

[(poco) Sforzando]

I wonder what may have influenced his original and provocative approaches . . . .

I don't know, but it's considered a very influential book.

[paulb]

I agree with this, though I think I might have hestiated before including the word "just." 

Although I have certainly heard Mozart's influence on Beethoven, it has never occurred to me that Beethoven wrote Mozart's most characteristic work, not even "as though."

There may be some Ives  in Carter, as there may be some Mahler in Schonberg and Shostakovich.
There are some composers in which  i hear way too much of an influence from another contemporary composer, which makes me suspect and cautious to accept the work.

As to the Mozart/Beethoven connection, I am not buying in either..
Though i have heard some conductors with a   heavy sounding orch which proceeds to bring out a  Mozart sym in textures that seem awefully close to Beethoven.
Now how does this happen, Beethoven influences Mozart 

[(poco) Sforzando]

Now how does this happen, Beethoven influences Mozart 

Not what I said or wrote. Read more carefully.

[Joe Barron]

I wonder what may have influenced his original and provocative approaches . . . .

Why, it's just as though Bloom wrote Nietzsche's Case of Wagner.

Kidding aside, Sf, I can appreciate what you're getting at. I'll have to read the Bloom if I get the chance. I also think you're right about Holland: He was probably just being imprecise. 

[(poco) Sforzando]

Why, it's just as though Bloom wrote Nietzsche's Case of Wagner.

Kidding aside, Sf, I can appreciate what you're getting at. I'll have to read the Bloom if I get the chance. I also think you're right about Holland: He was probably just being imprecise. 

I'm sorry I brought it up . . . .

[karlhenning]

I'm sorry I brought it up . . . .

Oh, not a bit, sforzando!

[Joe Barron]

Oh, not a bit, sforzando!

And I remember Scott and Zelda Fitzgerald came home from their wild New Year's Eve party. It was April. Scott had just finished writing Great Expectations, and Gertrude Stein and I read it and we said that it was a good book, but that there was no need to have written it because Charles Dickens had already written it. — Woody Allen

[karlhenning]

Miss Havisham, white courtesy telephone, please!

[Joe Barron]

There may be some
There are some composers in which  i hear way too much of an influence from another contemporary composer, which makes me suspect and cautious to accept the work.

Depends on what you mean by "too much." I recently read Geiringer's biography of Haydn, and it appears the mutual influence between Haydn and Mozart was enormous. Each learned a great deal from the other, and of course, Mozart took the extraordary step of dedicating his first mature string quartets to Haydn, rather than a patron or memebr of the nobility.

But to get back to the topic of this thread: Mr. Carter has always been up front about his influences, and though he has a distinctive compostional voice, I've never regarded him as especially innovative, certainaly not in the way Ives was. He has taken many of his ideas from elsewhere, and he excels at perfecting existing forms. He did not invent atonality or cross pulses, and he has said the dense string writing of the Piano Concerto was inspired by the textural music being written by Penderecki et al. at the time. (How different the effect!) The Variations, as Schiff points out, are a tour of the compositional practices of the 1950s. I have always been able to place Carter's work in the context of other music. Listen to Carter, and then listen contemporary pieces by Wolpe or Imbrie, and you'll see the connections. Carter is an extraordinarily learned man. It would be naive not to expect that learnedness to show up in his music.

None of this is to question his importance or originality. Eliot said that mediocre artists imitiate. Great artists steal. Swaffford said of Brahms that in the finale of the First Piano Concerto, which used the finale of Beethoven's Third Concerto as a template, he stole creatively, "as all great artists steal." Carter has done his share of creative stealing.

[karlhenning]

And yet, Carter never (to my knowledge) has been accused of sounding too much like Charles Ives.

[Joe Barron]

And yet, Carter never (to my knowledge) has been accused of sounding too much like Charles Ives.

Cf. "distinctive compositional voice," above. 

While Carter and Ives never sound alike, there are moments in Carter's work I would call Ivesian, such as the climax of the Adagio tenebroso, though Carter's expressive purposes are very different from those of Ives. In its layering, spatial effects, and it sheer manic energy, I would call the Concerto for Orchestra his most Ivesian piece. 

On a structural level, viz. the use of nonlinear development, Carter's music has also been deeply influenced by Debussy. Yet of course, no one would say their music sounds alike. I would say that in terms of influence, the lessons Carter learns from other composers tend to be structural, rather than harmonic or thematic or any other ic one can name.

[bwv 1080]

And yet, Carter never (to my knowledge) has been accused of sounding too much like Charles Ives.

The sense of multiple things happening at once is similar - I always thought if you replaced the tonal or quotational material in Ives with pre-12 tone Schoenberg material you would get a very rough approximation of Carter

[Mark G. Simon]

Carter also owes a lot to Conlon Nancarrow, who was already writing music in multiple tempos for player piano in the 1940s. Carter acknowledged that debt by quoting one of those player piano studies in the First Quartet. The First Quartet also quotes Ives' First Violin Sonata.

One of the things that makes Carter's 1st quartet so powerful is the overwhelming sense of discovery. Carter has just discovered his true voice and is proclaiming "This is who I am" as well as "this is where I came from".

[Joe Barron]

One of the things that makes Carter's 1st quartet so powerful is the overwhelming sense of discovery. Carter has just discovered his true voice and is proclaiming "This is who I am" as well as "this is where I came from".

Well said!

The sense of multiple things happening at once is similar - I always thought if you replaced the tonal or quotational material in Ives with pre-12 tone Schoenberg material you would get a very rough approximation of Carter

Carter has abstracted Ives.

[Joe Barron]

From the news desk

I just saw at the Boosey web site that Mr. Carter's Flute Concerto is scheduled for performance in Berlin in June 2009. Emmanuel Pahud will be soloist, Barenboim conducting the Berlin Philharmonic.

To quote Tom Rakewell: I wish I had money.

I do hope this is not a posthumous premiere, and I also hope the original executants record it. It would be, to my knowledge, the first recording of a Carter piece with the BPO.  Or maybe not. The cachet they bring to Beethoven might not translate precisely to Carter. 

[Mark G. Simon]

This means all he has to do is write a bassoon concerto and he'll have completed the project Nielsen was not able to carry through -- writing a concerto for all the instruments of the woodwind quintet.

I still think he needs to write a Woodwind Quintet no. 2 to complete his life's work.

[toledobass]

Haven't seen anything posted so just wondering if the NY folks are aware of this:

http://www.symphonyspace.org/event/2110


Looks like fun,

Allan

[bhodges]

Haven't seen anything posted so just wondering if the NY folks are aware of this:

http://www.symphonyspace.org/event/2110


Looks like fun,

Allan

Yep, I'll be there!  Two excellent pianists (whom I've just heard in the last week), and the program looks quite interesting.

--Bruce