Elliott Carter, 1908-2012

Started by bwv 1080, April 07, 2007, 09:08:12 AM

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Joe Barron

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 06, 2009, 11:26:33 AM
One reason I am keen to fetch in Pacifica disc 2 is, I haven't yet heard nos. 3 or 4.

I am eager to hear what you think of them, especially the Third.

And, well, Shostakovich, yes, and Bartok, certainly. And I guess Haydn and Mozart and Brahms, too. The point I was making was about Carter, viz., that his music is not the dry, cynical, sterile, theoretcial exercise that [upcoming weasel-word alert] some critics (including those on this board) would have it. Like the SQ's of other great composers, including all those named, they work on a human level. Performances like the Pacifica's remind us of that humanity.

karlhenning

Quote from: Joe Barron on March 06, 2009, 12:12:06 PM
I am eager to hear what you think of them, especially the Third.

And, well, Shostakovich, yes, and Bartok, certainly. And I guess Haydn and Mozart and Brahms, too. The point I was making was about Carter, viz., that his music is not the dry, cynical, sterile, theoretcial exercise that [upcoming weasel-word alert] some critics (including those on this board) would have it. Like the SQ's of other great composers, including all those named, they work on a human level. Performances like the Pacifica's remind us of that humanity.

Certamente.

bhodges

So I almost forgot, I'm hearing more Carter next Tuesday night at Carnegie, a piece I don't know at all, Réflexions (and the rest of the program is pretty glorious, too).

Chicago Symphony Orchestra
Pierre Boulez, Conductor Emeritus

Stravinsky: Symphony in Three Movements 
Stravinsky: Four Studies for Orchestra 
Carter: Réflexions (NY Premiere)
Varèse: Ionisation 
Varèse: Amériques

--Bruce

karlhenning


Guido

I got that Oppens recording of all the Carter piano music, which is great as Joe says. I cannot get into Night Fantasies though - I find it to be the most impenetrable work of his that I have heard - even more so than the gloriously jungle like piano concerto. I just find that there is absolutely nothing to latch onto... The other pieces are great though. I think I marginally prefer the playing of Peter Lawson in the piano sonata, though one can of course learn to love several approaches to such a great work.
Geologist.

The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away

Guido

Next step - Third string quartet. I got the Pacifica Quartet recording so will listen to that soon. I did notice that the Pacifica take 28 minutes in the fourth quartet, and the Arditti recording I have of the same was something like 20 minutes as far as I can remember... a huge disparity in timings... A I remembering correctly?
Geologist.

The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away

Joe Barron

#926
Quote from: Guido on March 07, 2009, 02:27:32 AM
Next step - Third string quartet. I got the Pacifica Quartet recording so will listen to that soon. I did notice that the Pacifica take 28 minutes in the fourth quartet, and the Arditti recording I have of the same was something like 20 minutes as far as I can remember... a huge disparity in timings... A I remembering correctly?

OK, let's compare:

Quartet No 1
Juilliard: 42:03
Arditti: 40:03
Pacifica: 39:41
Composers: 38:01

No. 2:
Juilliard: 23:26*
Arditti: 20:08
Pacifica: 24:34
Composers: 20:01

No. 3
Juilliard: 21:21*
Arditti: 20:12
Pacifica: 21:53
Composers: 19:19

No. 4
Juilliard: 29:00
Arditti: 20:47
Pacifica: 27:48
Composers: 24:36

No. 5
Arditti: 20:26
Pacifica: 21:11

Widest range of variation is the Fourth, from 20 for the Arditti to 29 minutes for the the Juilliard. There seems to be a  difference of opinion about how fast to take the Presto and how slowly to take the Lento. Pacifica also has the longest times for the Second and Third, which I attribute to their luxuriant approach. It certainly can't be said they haven't mastered the fast sections. same for the Juilliard's Fourth.

* From the Sony box recording. Juilliard has recorded the Third twice and the Second three times.

Joe Barron

Bruce, Reflexions is a very attractive 10-minute piece, much in the vein of the Asko Concerto. (I have a broadcast recrding.) I think some of Carter's best music of late has been in these little chamber symphonies.

haydnguy

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 06, 2009, 11:26:33 AM
is, I haven't yet heard nos. 3 or 4. (Don't be hatin' on me . . . .)

You haven't heard 3 or 4? :o :o :o

  :D ;D

karlhenning


Joe Barron

Well, you know, unlike many of us, Karl has a real life, writing music of his own.

Guido

Quote from: Joe Barron on March 07, 2009, 08:30:42 AM
No. 4
Juilliard: 29:00
Arditti: 20:47
Pacifica: 24:34
Composers: 24:36


Widest range of variation is the Fourth, from 20 for the Arditti to 29 minutes for the the Juilliard, and the Composers and Pacifica together in the middle with only a two-second difference. (Interesting that those two are my favorite recordings of the piece. The Composers version, which is out of print, is great.)  Maybe there was some difference of opinion about how fast to take the Presto and how slowly to take the Lento. Pacifica also has the longest times for the Second and Third, which I attribute to their luxuriant approach. It certainly can't be said they haven't mastered the fast sections.

Is this a typo? By my reckoning the Pacifica take 28:44, movements taking 7:20, 6:31, 6:49, 7:04 respectively. Anyway, I should listen to both and see for myself why the difference is there!

Are there any plans to record Reflections?
Geologist.

The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away

Wendell_E

Quote from: Guido on March 08, 2009, 08:54:13 AM
Is this a typo? By my reckoning the Pacifica take 28:44, movements taking 7:20, 6:31, 6:49, 7:04 respectively.

Those timings add up to 27:44, which is about what it says on the back cover of the recording (27:48).  Joe's 24:34 is the timing of the 2nd.
"Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." ― Mark Twain

Guido

Oops... my typo then, sorry! At least I was slightly closer! Thanks for sorting it out.  :-[ :)
Geologist.

The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away

Joe Barron

#934
My bad, as they say. Timing corrected in my original post. The Fouirth remains the one with the greatest amount of variation. Even more so, given the Pacifica's timing of 27:48 (given on the back cover of the disk), which is just about midway between Juiliard and Composers.

I know of no plans to record Reflexions --- or the Clarinet Quintet, or Interventions, or Soundings, or Sound Fields or Mad Regales or the Three Illusions or In the Distances of Sleep or any other of the great music Mr. Carter has written in the past three-plus years.

But if you have the bandwidth, you can still hear Reflexions at Tanglewood TV. Click on "launch WebTV." It's the fourth link from the left.

Guido

Ok cheers! I guess these will all get recorded eventually...
Geologist.

The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away

Cato

So today, finally, my 8th-Grade Latin students, who translated parts of the Latin poem "The Bubble" by the 17th-century Englishman Richard Crashaw heard the opening of Elliot Carter's Symphonia Sum Fluxae Pretium Spei.

They have heard various things in my room, from Gregorian Chant through Bruckner to Carl Orff, but of course nothing like the style of Carter, which, of course, to the uninitiated ear can sound like an orchestra falling down a long flight of stairs.  8)

The reaction was interesting, ranging from "It sounds like Tom and Jerry cartoons" (and hats off, therefore, to Scott Bradley for anticipating the oeuvre of Carter) to one rather enthusiastic girl (whose name is Hope, and since the title is "I am the preciousness (or prize) of flowing hope," her ears perked up) who said: "It sounds like everything you would hear in a forest, birds and all kinds of animals scurrying away."

One of the boys said he could find no connection to the text, but a few others thought they could hear impressions of the wind and air mentioned in the text.

And of course one wiseguy says: "I'm going to download that for my ring-tone!"   0:)

Tomorrow I will play parts of the last two movements. The CD is from DGG with Oliver Knussen and the BBC Symphony.  The Clarinet Concerto is included.
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

karlhenning


bhodges

"Bravo" to you for playing this for your students.  (I wish I'd heard some Carter in 8th grade!)  Interesting reactions, and I'll bet that some of them are still thinking about what they heard.  

--Bruce

snyprrr

Quote from: bhodges on May 21, 2009, 09:00:48 AM
(I wish I'd heard some Carter in 8th grade!)

Not if it had been the Brass Qnt. as it was with me. You could have picked something better, Prof. Hough! He even played it for us (he was in the Annapolis Brass Qnt.), and the sight of these five red puffed faces squelching out the anguished tones of one of Carter's most uncompromising works certainly did not help the giggle factor at the time. Perhaps the Cello Sonata would have been better. I like Carter just fine now, but the Brass Qnt. is still one of his toughest pieces. Anyone concur?