Elliott Carter, 1908-2012

Started by bwv 1080, April 07, 2007, 09:08:12 AM

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Joe Barron

Quote from: snyprrr on May 21, 2009, 09:57:14 AM
Not if it had been the Brass Qnt. as it was with me. You could have picked something better, Prof. Hough! He even played it for us (he was in the Annapolis Brass Qnt.), and the sight of these five red puffed faces squelching out the anguished tones of one of Carter's most uncompromising works certainly did not help the giggle factor at the time. Perhaps the Cello Sonata would have been better. I like Carter just fine now, but the Brass Qnt. is still one of his toughest pieces. Anyone concur?

The Brass Quintet is a favorite of mine. An underrated, overlooked piece, in my opinion, that is to the Third Quartet what the Harpsichord Sonata is to the First--- a sort of divertimento written quicky after a breakthrough quartet that took a great deal of effort. I love the bell-like chorales and the sudden disruptions. Something about the sound of brass makes me think of dusk in a great city.

Cato, I was happy to read your post. I have nothing to add, but I did enjoy the kids' reactions. We may have a few new Carterphiles on our hands. 

In eighth grade, I was a soprano in the boys' choir at Resurrection of Our Lord Roman Catholic Church. We sang a lot of kitsch, even some selection from Jesus Christ Superstar, as I recall. (Webber wasn't too bad in those days, but Tim Rice can't write a lyric to save his life. "Ho-sanna hey sanna sanna sanna ho sana hey sanna ho sanna." Jeez.) I remember, too, going down to the gym one afternoon to hear a group of visiting opera singers perform Menotti's "Telephone." Nothing adventurous, but credit the nuns with trying to teach us something. The Ode to Joy showed up as a hymn at Mass with new, awful lyrics. No wonder I fled to atheism.

Carter and Ives I had to discover on my own.

Cato

Quote from: Joe Barron on May 21, 2009, 10:40:03 AM
brass makes me think of dusk in a great city.

Cato, I was happy to read your post. I have nothing to add, but I did enjoy the kids' reactions. We may have a few new Carterphiles on our hands. 

The Ode to Joy showed up as a hymn at Mass with new, awful lyrics. No wonder I fled to atheism.

Carter and Ives I had to discover on my own.

I have heard several versions of Beethoven's theme with fairly awful lyrics attempting to imitate a decent hymn!   0:)

Thanks to all for the comments: I will give you part II tomorrow!
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Joe Barron

Quote from: Cato on May 21, 2009, 11:05:37 AM
I have heard several versions of Beethoven's theme with fairly awful lyrics attempting to imitate a decent hymn!   0:)

Come, sing a song of joy for peace shall come, my bro-o-ther.
Come, sing a song of joy for men shall love each o-o-ther.


It was a form of child abuse.

By the way, I should mention, for the record, that the Symphonia is Carter's one big orchestral piece that I am still grappling with --- like snyyprr with the Brass Quintet. At this point i like the Boston Concerto much more, and few things, still, can compare with the Concerto for Orchestra or the Symphonia of Three Orchestras for sheer orchestral kickassedness.

karlhenning

Quote from: Joe Barron on May 21, 2009, 11:16:28 AM
Come, sing a song of joy for peace shall come, my bro-o-ther.
Come, sing a song of joy for men shall love each o-o-ther.


It was a form of child abuse.

Henry van Dyke's text earned Ludwig van the № 8 spot in the 1958 edition of The Pilgrim Hymnal:

Joyful, joyful, we adore thee, God of glory, Lord of love;
hearts unfold like flowers before thee, opening to the sun above.

karlhenning

Thread duty:

I wish I had had a teacher who would have played us Carter in eighth grade, too.

Joe Barron

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 21, 2009, 11:43:15 AM
Thread duty:
I wish I had had a teacher who would have played us Carter in eighth grade, too.

I just wish we had a teacher who would have introduced us to great music as it was written, rather than in the watered down hymn version we got in those "We Sing and Pray" books. 

Our choir nun proabably could have done it, but she didn't. She was quite knowledgable about music and played piano and organ very well. When I was in college, I ran into her at the Philadelphia performance of the Mahler Eighth. At choir practice, I recall, she would face us and accompany herself backwards: that is, with one hand behind her on the keyboard. Impressive woman  --- and attractive, in a hardfaced, dominatrix kind of way. I don't doubt she proabably knew of Carter's music. But, it wasn't church approved, so there you go.

Cato

Today's report on playing excerpts of the last two movements of Carter's Symphonia Sum Fluxae Pretium Spei for my 8th Grade Latin classes.

For the darker, slower second movement the reaction was:

"It sounds like you're being chased through a forest."

"There's a struggle between day and night, like the first movement was the day, and now it's night, but the day tries to come through."

"The structure was easier to follow."  (!!!   :o   !!!)

"I kept thinking about squirrels hiding in a forest."

And for the third movement:

"It sounds like birds and butterflies!"

"There's a battle between the first two movements, and the first movement wins, but maybe, because of the way it ends, maybe it died and went to heaven."  (This is a Catholic school after all!   0:)   )

And keeping that last thought in mind there was this astonishing comment from my best student:

"I'd say the whole work is supposed to be the sound of human consciousness."   :o    :o    :o

When I asked him to explain this in more detail, he said that it seems to have every emotion, from the monsters that have to be controlled to wild happiness and everything in between.

And then something even more astonishing!!!

I had not told them the title of the poem which inspired Carter ("Bulla" i.e. "The Bubble" by Richard Crashaw) and turned the exercise into a guessing game: what is the poet referring to, and what is the composer describing with his music?

One of the dimmer bulbs in the lamp, however, raised his hand and said: "I kept thinking (during the 3rd movement) of that scene from Willy Wonka where they're inside of a bubble: is that it maybe?"   :o    :o    :o

So there you have it!  The Collective (Un)(Sub)Consciousness has linked Elliot Carter to Willy Wonka!   0:)

To quote W.C. Fields:

"It baffles science!"
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Joe Barron

Quote from: Cato on May 22, 2009, 08:20:20 AM

One of the dimmer bulbs in the lamp, however, raised his hand and said: "I kept thinking (during the 3rd movement) of that scene from Willy Wonka where they're inside of a bubble: is that it maybe?"   :o    :o    :o

So there you have it!  The Collective (Un)(Sub)Consciousness has linked Elliot Carter to Willy Wonka!   0:)

To quote W.C. Fields:

"It baffles science!"

The point is, he understood the bubble reference. I like the comparison to birds and butterflies.

karlhenning

I'm confusing photos of Gene Wilder and Carter all the time.

Joe Barron

#949
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 22, 2009, 08:35:07 AM
I'm confusing photos of Gene Wilder and Carter all the time.

Really? I always confused Carter with Burgess Meredith. And let's not  make fun of the kid. When you are asked what you get out of a piece of music, there are no right or wrong answers, or even smart or dumb answers, any more than there are in word association (unless, of course, they saying something egnuinely stupid like George Crumb just writes sound effects). He was giving an honest reaction, and I admire him for that.

And I admire Cato for (1) introducing children to challenging modern music and (2) proving, or at least suggesting, that all forms of artistic expression are valid as long as you are exposed to them early enough. The idea that tonal music is somehow more "natural" than atonal music is a learned response.

karlhenning

Quote from: Joe Barron on May 22, 2009, 08:45:41 AM
Really? I always confused Carter with Burgess Meredith.

You're right; I was fibbing with the Gene Wilder tie-in.

Cato

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 22, 2009, 08:50:34 AM
You're right; I was fibbing with the Gene Wilder tie-in.

I showed the classes the picture of Elliot Carter from the CD, where he is wearing a Roy Rogers shirt!   $:)  I suspect the picture is from 10 years ago, when he was a young 90.

The girls reacted with delight: "OH!  He's so cute!"  "He looks like a little elf!"  "Look at him!  He's like a grandpa doll!"

There you have it!  If you compose music, girls can still find you cute at 90!   8)
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

karlhenning

I've got some hope to hold onto!

Joe Barron

He's like a koala. He's cute, but he does bite.

Homo Aestheticus

#954
Joe,

Quote from: Joe Barron on May 22, 2009, 08:45:41 AMThe idea that tonal music is somehow more "natural" than atonal music is a learned response.

But does this mean that it's just a matter of time before atonal music is as widely embraced as tonal ?  

Joe Barron

Quote from: The Unrepentant Pelleastrian on May 23, 2009, 05:56:49 AM
Joe,

But does this mean that it's just a matter of time before atonal music is as widely embraced as tonal ?  

If all teachers were like Cato, probably.

Homo Aestheticus

Quote from: Joe Barron on May 23, 2009, 06:10:10 AMIf all teachers were like Cato, probably.

Damn, I admire your optimism !

:)

Cato

Quote from: Joe Barron on May 23, 2009, 06:10:10 AM
If all teachers were like Cato, probably.

Well, thank you, but that is most likely overstated!   :D

In Psychology there are "unthinkable experiments," i.e. experiments one would like to do on human beings, but obviously cannot.

I have always wondered what would happen, if one took a child from birth on up and isolated them from all music except Schoenberg and friends after 1920: no tonal music whatsoever, only dodecaphony.

Would the child's brain, upon being exposed to tonal music at a later age (12?  16?), wrinkle his nose and shake his head at the odd sounds?
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Joe Barron

Quote from: Cato on May 23, 2009, 08:23:12 AM
I have always wondered what would happen, if one took a child from birth on up and isolated them from all music except Schoenberg and friends after 1920: no tonal music whatsoever, only dodecaphony.

Would the child's brain, upon being exposed to tonal music at a later age (12?  16?), wrinkle his nose and shake his head at the odd sounds?

Or you might just create a serial killer.  ;)

karlhenning

Joe, are you thinking of coming to Boston for any of the Carter events at Symphony?

Mosaic Saturday 3 Oct 09
Dialogues Thursday-Saturday 28-30 Jan 10
Flute Concerto (American premiere, BSO co-commission) Thursday-Friday 4-5 Feb 10; Tuesday 9 Feb 10