Newbie Listener - Help Me

Started by Zhiliang, July 18, 2008, 08:46:23 AM

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Zhiliang

Hi, i may just be ranting, but i seriously need some help over here. The question for me is, what is it that makes a orchestral recording great? What is it that defined the conductor as great? What is it that defined the orchestra as a great orchestra?

As a pianist myself, all i have been always listening to is piano solo repertoire or piano concertos. I have only the basic knowledge of orchestral instruments. When listening to a piano recording, i could at least feel for myself, giving personal opinions on why certain recordings are great, why some are only good, and why some i just cant like. There seems to be things i could easily discuss upon, like the interpretation, musicality, technical facility of the pianist, tonal colours, pedalling, tempi and so on and so on...

But when i am faced with an orchestral recording, though i could basically tell that there are differences between different recordings of the same piece, i just cant put a word to even describe whether its good or not, or why its good and why others think its good or bad.

There are so much orchestral music that i would really like to explore and listen to, but i seriously need help on how to start, how to start being able to JUST LISTEN like all of you.

Sorry for the poor english and thats the best i can express out on how i feel now. Help me!

scarpia


The basic criteria are essentially identical to those of solo piano music.  Control of tempo, dynamics, phrasing, whether the conductor has an overall musical conception and whether it is well executed.

The issue of technical quality/virtuosity is complicated by the fact that there are many soloists and sections of the orchestra which may have different levels of skill.   Another issue is that different countries or regions have distinct styles of orchestral playing (or at least did in olden days).  Part of this is performance practice, part of it is that the instruments (particularly wind instruments) are slightly different.  Trumpets can have rotary or piston values, brass instruments can have larger or smaller bores, there are different varieties of oboe, bassoon, etc.  Some of the old orchestras (such as the Vienna Philharmonic) continue to use old styled instruments which have their own unique timbre, while others use more modern versions.    On the other hand, similar distinctions exist in the solo piano literature, where different countries have different performance traditions, and soloists may choose to use New York Steinway, Hamburg Steinway, Bosendorfer, Fasoli, or Yamaha instruments, etc.

Zhiliang

Thanks for the quick reply. Is there anyway i can break through the barrier of knowing what is in itself good excecution, because after some listening, i am still lost, even in forming opinions.

For an example, i was listening to Valery Gergiev's live recording of Tchaikovsky's 5th Symphony with the Vienna Philharmonic, and then later on trying the Karajan's 1965 recording of the same piece with Berlin Philharmonic. Immediately i took a personal preference of the Gergiev's version and found the Karajan's one a little stale. That is only my opinion, but liking it and mentioning that the other is "stale" are just what i can only do. Now, maybe Karajan may have a better recording of the same piece on his many versions, but what comes straight to my mind, is that he is really a famous conductor, and what is that something that i may have miss out? What am i not hearing or understanding?

Zhiliang

Another problem that i face is that, i am sure everyone does agree that there is certainly something great about the Mahler symphonies. But no matter how many times i try listening to them, i either change to another piece halfway, or just stop at the first movement. And the thing is, i do want to give it a try. I do want to understand the passion behind it.

I do love the 5th though and thats about it.

Its like when comparing to the piano repertoire, even obscure pieces can make me give full attention to them, but i just cant find that when approaching orchestral music.

Really think there is something wrong with me after all.....



scarpia

There seem to be a lot of Mahler-lovers on this board, but I must say I often find that his works test my patience.  That's where the old vinyl records were good, you could look at them and see the "good parts" and go right to them.  I find 1, 5, 6 and 9 listenable in their entirety.  The rest I have to restrict myself to favorite exerpts, if I hope to remain awake.  Don't force yourself to appreciate a composer you don't like.  You can come back to him later and see if your impression has changed.

Regarding the Karajan vs Kergiev comparison, I have heard the Karajan but not the Kergiev.  One impression is that Karajan is not interested in highlighting the virtuosity of the orchestra, per se, but wants to shape the sound of the various sections of the orchestra to create the effect he has in mind.  As a result, his recordings may not be as overtly appealing as some others, at least at first impression.  In Karajan recordings you should be paying attention to the way he controls and shapes the sound of the orchestra to create a particular mood or impression.  On the other hand, you may not like Karajan's style, some despise it.   I like it for some things, but not others.

Opus106

Quote from: scarpia on July 18, 2008, 10:05:42 AM
Don't force yourself to appreciate a composer you don't like.  You can come back to him later and see if your impression has changed.

Zhiliang, while I'm in the same boat as you are (in terms of identifying "greatness") and don't have an answer to your original question, I agree with scarpia's statement above. It happens to me - not at all times, though - that when I discover a new piece or a new composer, it is inevitably from the middle of the work and usually it's on the radio, where sometimes I may not know what the piece of the music being played is. It's a psychological thing, I guess. You give me composer xxxxxxxxx (whose works are generally not to my taste) and I'd probably listen to something else; but when I hear a random piece of music I like and then find the composer to be xxxxxxxxx, then I realise how much I have been missing. Of course, there have been cases where I was somewhat familiar with the composer's music, but it "clicked" only later. Brahms comes to mind.
Regards,
Navneeth

hornteacher

Quote from: Zhiliang on July 18, 2008, 09:40:43 AM
Another problem that i face is that, i am sure everyone does agree that there is certainly something great about the Mahler symphonies. But no matter how many times i try listening to them, i either change to another piece halfway, or just stop at the first movement. And the thing is, i do want to give it a try. I do want to understand the passion behind it.

I do love the 5th though and thats about it.

Its like when comparing to the piano repertoire, even obscure pieces can make me give full attention to them, but i just cant find that when approaching orchestral music.

Really think there is something wrong with me after all.....




I'm the same way.  I've been listening to Classical music for 25 years now and have JUST started to really explore Mahler.  But, force feeding doesn't work.  Try it and if you don't like it now come back to it later.  Besides, if you're just starting to delve into orchestral music, starting with Mahler is like trying to read War and Peace before learning the alphabet.

Zhiliang

Thanks for all the replies. How very true, you all certainly make me feel better. Come to think of it, when i first started listening to piano recordings, its always Rachmaninoff 2nd Concerto and Tchaikovsky 1st Concerto too. I guess forcing myself to digest music that i cant appreciate might just turn me away rather.

I feel that sometimes, youtube is a good way to so called sample a piece. Really agree with Scarpia and Opus 67, that excerpts can help me like a certain piece or find out more about the composer's other outputs.

Is there anyway that i can ease myself more easily to really "hearing" an orchestral piece?


hornteacher

Plus, Naxos has a great series where they take apart an orchestral work piece by piece and explain its structure, content, and meaning.  Here's one of them:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000069HGK/ref=dm_dp_cdp?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1216477253&sr=8-1

Opus106

Quote from: hornteacher on July 19, 2008, 06:23:16 AM
Plus, Naxos has a great series where they take apart an orchestral work piece by piece and explain its structure, content, and meaning. 

I never knew about that. Thanks for the info.
Regards,
Navneeth

Zhiliang

Quote from: hornteacher on July 19, 2008, 06:20:16 AM
These two books are really nice for doing just that:

http://www.amazon.com/What-Listen-Music-Aaron-Copland/dp/0451528670/ref=sr_1_13?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1216477144&sr=1-13

http://www.amazon.com/Great-Instrumental-Works-Unlocking-Contains/dp/1574671170/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1216477177&sr=1-1

Hey i tried one of the unlocking the masters book for the Shostakovich symphonies and tried the Leningrad Symphony and now listening has more meaning. At least i know what are the composers' intentions and what is happening.

Is this series the best and most assessible books on listening?

hornteacher

Quote from: Zhiliang on July 20, 2008, 05:28:05 PM
Hey i tried one of the unlocking the masters book for the Shostakovich symphonies and tried the Leningrad Symphony and now listening has more meaning. At least i know what are the composers' intentions and what is happening.

Is this series the best and most accessible books on listening?

I wouldn't say "best" because a lot more books go into greater detail (i.e. some of the Cambridge series and other independent books).  However, the Unlocking the Masters Series is the easiest to follow, especially for diving into works for the first time.  Plus the cd's included are a nice way to sample works (and I like the big print).  Its a great series.  The Beethoven one just came out and a Brahms one is coming soon.