Personality Types

Started by greg, July 22, 2008, 07:24:43 PM

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Florestan

Quote from: greg on October 05, 2021, 08:23:35 PM
https://openpsychometrics.org/tests/RIASEC/

Realistic      2
Investigative      31
Artistic      27
Social      15
Enterprising      12
Conventional      6
Every kind of music is good, except the boring kind. — Rossini

Brahmsian

Quote from: Florestan on October 20, 2021, 05:08:37 AM
Realistic      2
Investigative      31
Artistic      27
Social      15
Enterprising      12
Conventional      6

Realistic 13
Investigative 14
Artistic 10
Social 5
Enterprising 2
Conventional 23

Mirror Image

Quote from: OrchestralNut on October 20, 2021, 05:37:24 AM
Realistic 13
Investigative 14
Artistic 10
Social 5
Enterprising 2
Conventional 23

Realistic   0
Investigative   17
Artistic   24
Social   6
Enterprising   0
Conventional   12

greg

Took the official enneagram tritype test (from here: https://enneagramtritypetest.com )

Got 458. It's gained a nickname as the "darkest tritype" lol.

That was kind of a wild test, idk what to think about it. On the main quiz, I get 5-4-1-8, so wanted to see which one I'd get here. Tbh, 4-5-8 is kind of the coolest possible tritype, so what if what's correct is just what you think is the coolest one, and that's really how you should type?
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greg

#184
So the test involves selecting cards on how much they resonate with you, and ordering them in a duel. This one came out on top and tore up the competition:

And below that is a description of types 4,5, and 8:


Someone's interpretation of that archetype:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Enneagram/comments/65owl7/458_archetype_description/

Kinda impressed how much it resonated reading that, almost like they are some sort of ghost following me around!  :D


Favorite line from there:
Quotemore introverted, but definitely not shy

ALWAYS have been annoyed at society not making the distinction, my whole life! Being extremely introverted does not mean shy! It just means not wanting to interact with people.
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amw

Quote from: OrchestralNut on October 20, 2021, 05:37:24 AM
Realistic 13
Investigative 14
Artistic 10
Social 5
Enterprising 2
Conventional 23
Realistic 0
Investigative 17
Artistic 19
Social 0
Enterprising 0
Conventional 0


I think my main problem with personality type testing is an entirely selfish one. No test actually describes my personality accurately in the slightest. Every potentially accurate observation comes loaded with extra poison pills that make it useless for me. The whole thing feels like attempts at cold reading that don't come off. I don't think I have a particularly unusual personality type either, or am anything but an ordinary sort of person, but maybe this assessment is incorrect.

For example I get almost every possible MBTI type on different tests depending on the test—I've been scored as both ISTJ and ENFP for example—and most of this is because the questions set up false binaries. e.g., "Are you good at planning your actions out in detail beforehand, or are you good at spontaneous improvisation?" - neither. "Do you like going to parties or being alone?" - depends on the circumstances. "Do you derive your energy from being around others?" - yes, but I hate doing that. "Do you rely on thoughts or feelings?" - both? Similarly, with ennegram tests I get a different type on each test, and most of the questions are even more leading. "Are you closer to being a fun, outgoing, adventurous person, or an analytical, cerebral, cautious person?" - neither. Not to even get started on astrological signs; apparently I'm supposed to be impulsive, extraverted, fun-loving, a visionary, imaginative, and afraid of commitment, of which only the last one is accurate. Big five/five factor model is accurate in giving me low levels of everything except neuroticism, but that also doesn't tell me very much, and I have to assume there are other personality traits not described in the model.

I again have to emphasise that I am not that weird. The most unusual thing about me is that I like classical music.

I'm sure there are other reasons to be against personality testing, relating to prevalence of social stereotypes about particular groups of people etc, and I know clinical psychologists don't like them much either, but my first reaction is always knee-jerk negative for this particular reason.

Mandryka

#186
Realistic 4
Investigative 12
Artistic 22
Social 23
Enterprising 25
Conventional 3

So I'm an unconventional unrealistic arts impresario with limited stamina for investigating new things. AMW -- I shall fix up a recital tour for you straight away. I'll go to all the parties, you just practise at home, investigating arty things. I only want 15%.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

amw

Quote from: Mandryka on October 25, 2021, 08:50:02 AM
Realistic 4
Investigative 12
Artistic 22
Social 23
Enterprising 25
Conventional 3

So I'm an unconventional unrealistic arts impresario with limited stamina for investigating new things. AMW -- I shall fix up a recital tour for you straight away. I'll go to all the parties, you just practise at home, investigating arty things. I only want 15%.
See, one reason you also need the "Realistic" skill is because that's what allows you to sit at home practicing! I'm happy to give a recital tour where I simply sightread music quite badly, though. If I add enough investigative research I can convince the audience it's more historically accurate this way.

greg

Quote from: amw on October 25, 2021, 08:39:06 AM
Realistic 0
Investigative 17
Artistic 19
Social 0
Enterprising 0
Conventional 0


I think my main problem with personality type testing is an entirely selfish one. No test actually describes my personality accurately in the slightest. Every potentially accurate observation comes loaded with extra poison pills that make it useless for me. The whole thing feels like attempts at cold reading that don't come off. I don't think I have a particularly unusual personality type either, or am anything but an ordinary sort of person, but maybe this assessment is incorrect.

For example I get almost every possible MBTI type on different tests depending on the test—I've been scored as both ISTJ and ENFP for example—and most of this is because the questions set up false binaries. e.g., "Are you good at planning your actions out in detail beforehand, or are you good at spontaneous improvisation?" - neither. "Do you like going to parties or being alone?" - depends on the circumstances. "Do you derive your energy from being around others?" - yes, but I hate doing that. "Do you rely on thoughts or feelings?" - both? Similarly, with ennegram tests I get a different type on each test, and most of the questions are even more leading. "Are you closer to being a fun, outgoing, adventurous person, or an analytical, cerebral, cautious person?" - neither. Not to even get started on astrological signs; apparently I'm supposed to be impulsive, extraverted, fun-loving, a visionary, imaginative, and afraid of commitment, of which only the last one is accurate. Big five/five factor model is accurate in giving me low levels of everything except neuroticism, but that also doesn't tell me very much, and I have to assume there are other personality traits not described in the model.

I again have to emphasise that I am not that weird. The most unusual thing about me is that I like classical music.

I'm sure there are other reasons to be against personality testing, relating to prevalence of social stereotypes about particular groups of people etc, and I know clinical psychologists don't like them much either, but my first reaction is always knee-jerk negative for this particular reason.
Oh, I totally get what you mean.

Theoretically, it seems everyone has a type (because nothing is perfectly balanced), but the problem is, if you are just naturally more balanced then it's extremely hard to see due to being such a tiny inbalance, and probably totally pointless to even take any of the tests or really get into it.

Then there is the question- what does it mean to "be" a type- is it what you are doing, or what you feel on the inside? (feeling like if it's the former, then my enneagram tritype is 541, but if it's the latter, it's a 458).
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71 dB

Quote from: amw on October 25, 2021, 08:39:06 AMI think my main problem with personality type testing is an entirely selfish one. No test actually describes my personality accurately in the slightest. Every potentially accurate observation comes loaded with extra poison pills that make it useless for me. The whole thing feels like attempts at cold reading that don't come off. I don't think I have a particularly unusual personality type either, or am anything but an ordinary sort of person, but maybe this assessment is incorrect.

For example I get almost every possible MBTI type on different tests depending on the test—I've been scored as both ISTJ and ENFP for example—and most of this is because the questions set up false binaries. e.g., "Are you good at planning your actions out in detail beforehand, or are you good at spontaneous improvisation?" - neither. "Do you like going to parties or being alone?" - depends on the circumstances. "Do you derive your energy from being around others?" - yes, but I hate doing that. "Do you rely on thoughts or feelings?" - both? Similarly, with ennegram tests I get a different type on each test, and most of the questions are even more leading. "Are you closer to being a fun, outgoing, adventurous person, or an analytical, cerebral, cautious person?" - neither. Not to even get started on astrological signs; apparently I'm supposed to be impulsive, extraverted, fun-loving, a visionary, imaginative, and afraid of commitment, of which only the last one is accurate. Big five/five factor model is accurate in giving me low levels of everything except neuroticism, but that also doesn't tell me very much, and I have to assume there are other personality traits not described in the model.

I again have to emphasise that I am not that weird. The most unusual thing about me is that I like classical music.

I'm sure there are other reasons to be against personality testing, relating to prevalence of social stereotypes about particular groups of people etc, and I know clinical psychologists don't like them much either, but my first reaction is always knee-jerk negative for this particular reason.

MBTI maps people in a binary 4D mesh:

You can be I*** or E***
You can be *S** or *N**
You can be **T* or **F*
You can be ***J or ***P

Now, nobody is 100 % of any particular choice. In fact we can be anything, but being something that is not most natural to you drains your mental energy fast. The "mode" of you that drains least of your mental energy is your personality type. Some people are in the middle of a certain axis. For example I am near the border of ***J and ***P, maybe a little more ***J, but I clearly have tendencies of ***P too. That's why I am INTJ/P. I am clearly an introvert, but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy company of other people (I have it easy being with one person, but being in a group of people drains my mental battery super-fast!). I am also clearly an INT*.

It is possible you are near the border of all 4 axes and that's why it is difficult for you to have consistent results that make sense. Try figuring out which of these axes puts you most clearly on one side. That is one step of knowing yourself better and then you might find it easier to answer the "it depends" questions. We can be this or that in various situations if needed, but what kind of situations do you hate the most? I feel miserable in a large group of people even when it is celebration and people are supposed to feel good, while I don't really feel miserable alone. I am happy in my own thoughts, inside my head. That tells me I am clearly an introvert and the tests I have taken strongly support that. For me the J/P part was a struggle, but then I accepted I am near the "border" and that's that. At least I know I am not heavily J or P. I am weakly both and I think this actually explains well the lack of achievements in my life and my neurosis over that fact. (J types achieve things, P types do not. The J in me wants to achieve stuff while the P keeps me from achieving. I think my internal conflicts with myself comes from J and P fighting each other. As for the INT* part is concerned, my mind has peace.)
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

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greg

Quote from: 71 dB on October 25, 2021, 03:33:44 PM
(J types achieve things, P types do not. The J in me wants to achieve stuff while the P keeps me from achieving. I think my internal conflicts with myself comes from J and P fighting each other. As for the INT* part is concerned, my mind has peace.)
I think it's a conflict between novelty-seeking and consistency.

I'm around the middle, too, I can draw up a plan to be consistent with something every day, but some days just don't feel like doing something, so I don't. Because on the path to achievement lies a lot of repetitive work that you might not feel inspired to do every day, so you sit around watching youtube or learning the basics of some random language like Thai or something- but then after that, your brain can recharge and feel ready to get back into what you were doing before.

Then again, I remember your explanation of it and it seemed to be a different reason.

Also, I'm probably around the middle in regards to Thinking vs. Feeling- and I think the way they describe feeling types is WAY wrong on sites like the official MBTI test, more likely I lean toward more of a feeler type but don't relate to the description and don't get that result in the test. So yeah, just having INxx as a type isn't very informative, so other systems have been much more insightful for me.
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71 dB

#191
Quote from: greg on October 25, 2021, 10:00:43 PM
I think it's a conflict between novelty-seeking and consistency.

Yes, but how this manifests itself in various personality types is propably different.

Quote from: greg on October 25, 2021, 10:00:43 PM
I'm around the middle, too, I can draw up a plan to be consistent with something every day, but some days just don't feel like doing something, so I don't. Because on the path to achievement lies a lot of repetitive work that you might not feel inspired to do every day, so you sit around watching youtube or learning the basics of some random language like Thai or something- but then after that, your brain can recharge and feel ready to get back into what you were doing before.
Yeah.

Quote from: greg on October 25, 2021, 10:00:43 PMThen again, I remember your explanation of it and it seemed to be a different reason.
This J/P divide and what it causes in me is my new idea, which might be wrong. My intuitive mind came up with it while I was posting and now my thinking mind has to process it. These are very complex issues, because we aren't talking about how audio speakers work. We are talking about how human beings work! The interaction of cognitive functions is very complex The goal is to understand ourselves, not MBTI which is just a simplified tool to understand human beings.

Quote from: greg on October 25, 2021, 10:00:43 PMAlso, I'm probably around the middle in regards to Thinking vs. Feeling- and I think the way they describe feeling types is WAY wrong on sites like the official MBTI test, more likely I lean toward more of a feeler type but don't relate to the description and don't get that result in the test. So yeah, just having INxx as a type isn't very informative, so other systems have been much more insightful for me.

A thinker can experience a lot of strong feelings, but is nevertheless a thinker if he/she bases his/her decisions on logical thinking rather than feelings. In fact a thinker is likely to be bad at controlling feelings so that thinkers may express their feelings strongly in situations were controlling feelings becomes too difficult for them. Similarly feelers probably have tons of logic based thoughts, but it is chaotic and they need their feelings to force their thoughts into an order that feels right.

When making decisions, thinkers ask: "Does morality make sense in this case?" while feelers ask: "Is it moral or amoral to do the logical thing in this case?"

We all have all the colours, but our personality comes from what roles those colors play for us. This makes it difficult to see what we are, because at first we see all the colors in us, but being honest to ourselves makes it possible to recognize the roles these colors play. At least for me the E/I axis has been always very clear. I knew I was an introvert when I learned about the concepts of extroversy and introversy. In that sense I have known myself well for decades, but that was only 25 % of MBTI. I never thought I was intuitive, but apparently I am and it does explain well how I process information. Since I am *N** I am not *S** meaning my physical interaction with the World around me is glumsy. This is true. I am sensitive to loud noises, bright lights and cold/hot water on my skin. I have to adjust he temperature of shower water just right for it to be comfortable for me. Learning to dance or play musical instruments is probably near impossible for me. For me pianists are super-humans. How can anyone control their fingers that well? All that stuff typical to having Asperger's. I even think Asperger's is a consequence of being an INTJ or INTP, the same damn thing!
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page <-- NEW Jan. 2024 "Harpeggiator"

greg

Quote from: 71 dB on October 26, 2021, 03:46:29 AM
A thinker can experience a lot of strong feelings, but is nevertheless a thinker if he/she bases his/her decisions on logical thinking rather than feelings. In fact a thinker is likely to be bad at controlling feelings so that thinkers may express their feelings strongly in situations were controlling feelings becomes too difficult for them. Similarly feelers probably have tons of logic based thoughts, but it is chaotic and they need their feelings to force their thoughts into an order that feels right.

When making decisions, thinkers ask: "Does morality make sense in this case?" while feelers ask: "Is it moral or amoral to do the logical thing in this case?"
Seems accurate.



Quote from: 71 dB on October 26, 2021, 03:46:29 AM
I never thought I was intuitive, but apparently I am and it does explain well how I process information. Since I am *N** I am not *S** meaning my physical interaction with the World around me is glumsy. This is true. I am sensitive to loud noises, bright lights and cold/hot water on my skin. I have to adjust he temperature of shower water just right for it to be comfortable for me. Learning to dance or play musical instruments is probably near impossible for me. For me pianists are super-humans. How can anyone control their fingers that well? All that stuff typical to having Asperger's. I even think Asperger's is a consequence of being an INTJ or INTP, the same damn thing!
This is one of those things that I think are misleading/inaccurate, though. Maybe statistically there could be a correlation? But personally it can misrepresent a lot of people, including me.

I was always an excellent speller and at the age of 16 (intuition is associated with dyslexia), and I was already shredding at guitar and got compliments in the music stores despite playing guitar only three years. There's no correlation. Think of someone like Franz Liszt, wildly creative yet at the same time an insanely impressive musician- you can do both. Also was into playing sports when I was young.

To solidify my point- surely you can tell by my posts I'm intuitive-dom? I was typed by OPS as lead Ni, also every single MBTI I score high on intuition and on the Big 5 always score high on Openness to Experience (which corresponds to intuition). So this doesn't apply to me at all. I'm not even writing this post in order, jumping around between different paragraphs (usually I write this way), which is typically of intuitives. It can cause problems- once, at my previous job I was asked to front-face an aisle of cleaning products and I skipped around randomly, just organizing by instinct, and my manager comes and yells at me, thinking I was organizing in order (thus missing half of everything). When I was just going to back and front-face everything randomly (think, like a game of whack-a-mole)- oh yeah, and analogies like that, intuitives abuse them to death because they are focusing on the "overview."

OPS defines intuition vs. sensing as "overview" vs. "proof."

Another example- when studying a new subject in school, did you ever flip through the textbook and preview different topics out of sheer curiosity? IMO that is intuitive-dom. Did you feel that doing the same type of math problems over and over again is extremely tedious and boring? IMO that is intuitive-dom.
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greg

#193
Took another tritype test and got 458.
Usually, it's referred to "The Scholar," one person mentioned it should be called "The Iconoclast" which describes 5w4 usually- that name is the best one IMO.


But it's amusing to see the different nicknames, just personal interpretations people have:

https://www.enneagrammer.com/-blog/trifix-nicknames




Quote458 The Demon

internal havoc, non-corporeal evil, possession, the three darkest fixes



A few more funny ones...

my brother's tritype:
Quote269 The Stockholm Syndrome

perhaps a harsh characterization, but defining the sense of triple "niceness" that comes with this combination




Quote147 The Lunatic

triple frustration, a combination of opposing energies, unsettling



Quote258 The Monk

triple rejection, offerings



Quote358 The Serial Killer

also a harsh characterization, but defining the sense of this combo having no natural sense of warm humanness, similar to 135, but with a martian (of the planet Mars) impetus, like a robotic Ares





Quote379 The Sex

BHE has called this trifix the DJ which I love, but I tend to think The Sex somehow hits it more on the head; the three fixes that are exhibitionistic; natural sex appeal; the sense that clothes could come off at any second and it's not a big deal; bodies are "fun"


edit: I just now thought of the best nickname so far for 458- the Black Mage.

Anyone who doesn't play RPG's might not have an idea about that... never really played much of Black Mage in FF14, but conceptually it's really cool. Also Yoshi P's favorite job (the lead developer of the game).
Damage-dealer black magic spells is cool, but really have only focused on melee damage jobs (Samurai, Monk, etc.)

may think of a better nickname in the future, though...
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amw

The ennegram (sp?) thing is interesting; I've looked into it a little bit and it does seem to account for the fact that people can have multiple sets of core values/beliefs/etc. A couple of online tests even repurpose one of the types to just be "everyone who doesn't fit into the other eight types". Don't think any of our descriptions applies to you? You're probably a type 6! Neat way of covering all the bases.

I think mostly it just assumes that people act in a way that is congruent with their core values, and we don't. To give examples from the various tests I subjected myself to:

Type 1: Correct in that I am hypercritical, judgmental and perfectionistic. Do I actually live up to these standards? No. I am also self-indulgent, impulsive, oversensitive to criticism and never put any effort into anything.
Type 2: Correct in that this is what I believe; life is fundamentally about relationships with others, and the ideal person is one who cares for others and puts work into these relationships, even at expense of their own needs. Do I actually do this? Again, no. I avoid others because dealing with them is too much work and heartache. I'm well aware this is wrong.
Type 4: Correct in that I do behave in a self-centered, immature, hypersensitive manner. Does this accord with my values? Not at all. Nor does this make me special or unique; lots of people are hypocrites.
Type 6: Correct in that this type is functionally meaningless as per above. But the one consistent claim about this type, regardless of everything else, is some kind of loyalty to friends, family, community or "tradition". Do I have this? No.
Type 7: Correct in that I'm lazy and avoid negative emotions. But the other consistent claim about this type is that such people are optimistic and fun-loving. Do I have this? No. I like staying at home and maybe sleeping.
Type 9: Correct in that I'm terminally conflict-avoidant, don't have a strong sense of self, and use addictions to avoid problems. Again, does this accord with my values? Not at all.

My final judgment is that it's cold reading, and frustrating cold reading at that because it doesn't provide either comfort or connection. But I guess looking to psychology in general for help, self-knowledge, insight or advice is something I could have predicted to be useless, since it can by nature never match connecting, and building intimate relationships, with other people.

greg

#195
Quote from: amw on October 31, 2021, 02:21:09 PM
I think mostly it just assumes that people act in a way that is congruent with their core values, and we don't.
This, IMO, might be some good insight that is overlooked in typology communities. It's something that definitely makes typing more difficult, too.

There's also the cold reality that one's values or behaviors might change on the environment. They might need to change for your survival. Or... sometimes different values that pre-exist in you are brought out because of your environment.

So that leads to the questions, are any quizzes really truly accurate (because they are asking about behavior)? We aren't entirely our environment- there's innate attributes as well. That's what tests should be tracking, but they tend to track "how have you been behaving?" which is probably the wrong question.

Example, a psychopath won't become a murderer usually if there's no reward for it (although I have heard of at least one case where they have murdered to get rid of boredom, though I strongly suspect they are also low-functioning/low intelligence). But if they had to kill, they would feel no remorse unlike a neurotypical- so there IS a difference, considering two people may have been raised in the same environment- and can be picked up on a brain scan.






Quote from: amw on October 31, 2021, 02:21:09 PM
Type 1: Correct in that I am hypercritical, judgmental and perfectionistic. Do I actually live up to these standards? No. I am also self-indulgent, impulsive, oversensitive to criticism and never put any effort into anything.
Type 2: Correct in that this is what I believe; life is fundamentally about relationships with others, and the ideal person is one who cares for others and puts work into these relationships, even at expense of their own needs. Do I actually do this? Again, no. I avoid others because dealing with them is too much work and heartache. I'm well aware this is wrong.
Type 4: Correct in that I do behave in a self-centered, immature, hypersensitive manner. Does this accord with my values? Not at all. Nor does this make me special or unique; lots of people are hypocrites.
Type 6: Correct in that this type is functionally meaningless as per above. But the one consistent claim about this type, regardless of everything else, is some kind of loyalty to friends, family, community or "tradition". Do I have this? No.
Type 7: Correct in that I'm lazy and avoid negative emotions. But the other consistent claim about this type is that such people are optimistic and fun-loving. Do I have this? No. I like staying at home and maybe sleeping.
Type 9: Correct in that I'm terminally conflict-avoidant, don't have a strong sense of self, and use addictions to avoid problems. Again, does this accord with my values? Not at all.

My final judgment is that it's cold reading, and frustrating cold reading at that because it doesn't provide either comfort or connection. But I guess looking to psychology in general for help, self-knowledge, insight or advice is something I could have predicted to be useless, since it can by nature never match connecting, and building intimate relationships, with other people.
When it comes to a tangled mess of analyzing, then idk, if you want you can just read up about all 9 as archetypes and see what clicks the most. Not logically, don't think much about, just build a picture of each as a character and see which vibes just work for you.

The Katherine Fauvre tritype test is the closest I've seen that takes that approach, but it totally isn't necessary.

But yeah, it's still all just an approximation like the entire realm of psychology.



edit: also one more thought, to see which is prioritized, you might have to ask some extreme questions. Like the one I've found fascinating- think I made a topic about it- Isolation vs. Competition vs. Hive Mind. If there is a preference, it could point to an enneagram type.
Hive Mind pointing to type 9 (i asked my brother this question, he picked it and is type 9- really seems to fit)
Isolation pointing to type 5 (was my selection, and my main or secondary type)
Competition pointing to type 8
(for example)
the point being... they are all bad and undesirable, but which ones are you able to stomach the least (or most)? It would reveal some sort of innate potential energy, I think, which should be understood as your actual personality.
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vers la flamme

Realistic: 19
Investigative: 31
Artistic: 32
Social: 20
Enterprising: 7
Conventional: 2

Wouldn't have pegged myself for such a realist  :laugh:

greg

I've been working on an idea of trityping music the last two hours, really cool but probably a waste of time lol

put every type and give it one adjective, then use it to describe either pieces of music, or broadly a composer's tendencies to make music which way.

Also found this (see attached), very interesting.
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greg

(last attachment, three wouldn't fit)
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greg

Found an entirely new typing system when I thought I already found them all. It's called Attitudinal Psyche.

It categories your attitude towards four different aspects- Emotion (E), Logic (L), Physical Environment (F), and Volition (V).
Your type is ranked from most confident to least confident/rigid/unapologetic.

For example, the type I got is EVFL, so the most confident/rigid/unapologetic is Emotions, the least is Logic.


Test is here:
https://www.attitudinalpsyche.com/take-the-test/

My results:
https://www.attitudinalpsyche.com/personality-profiles/dio/evfl/


So far, seems accurate, but need to learn a bit more still and think about it a bit more to know for sure.
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