theatrical music (wrong music)

[Philoctetes]

For most of the best program music that I am aware of this is decidedly not the case.  Sibelius' Tapiola can be regarded as a symphony, or you can make up your own program to imagine as it unfolds.  You can easily listen to Strauss' Don Juan without trying to match up particular elements of music with particular elements of the story, and Strauss did not supply any detailed explanations.  It is a glorious rondo with seductive episodes alternating with a vigorous theme, which is gradually transformed as the piece proceeds.  Liszt only specified that Les Preludes contained four episodes labeled (1) Dawn of Existence; Love; (2) Storms of Life; (3) Refuge and Consolation in Rural life; (4) Strife and Conquest.  I fail to see how this "insists that the listener adhere to a prescribed thought, feeling and imagery, conforming to an extramusical narrative" any more than the tempo markings such as "Allegro con brio,"  "Marcia funebre: adagio assai,"  "Scherzo: allegro vivace" or "Allegro molto."

I agree with this sentiment and a previous poster. I don't think it is implicit that one understand or even know the program to understand or love/hate the music. It's suggestive, I think, at best, even if the composer insists or intends a larger imposition, I have sincere doubts whether that has any application outside of his/her own head.

[eyeresist]

For most of the best program music that I am aware of this is decidedly not the case.  Sibelius' Tapiola can be regarded as a symphony, or you can make up your own program to imagine as it unfolds.  You can easily listen to Strauss' Don Juan without trying to match up particular elements of music with particular elements of the story, and Strauss did not supply any detailed explanations.  It is a glorious rondo with seductive episodes alternating with a vigorous theme, which is gradually transformed as the piece proceeds.  Liszt only specified that Les Preludes contained four episodes labeled (1) Dawn of Existence; Love; (2) Storms of Life; (3) Refuge and Consolation in Rural life; (4) Strife and Conquest.  I fail to see how this "insists that the listener adhere to a prescribed thought, feeling and imagery, conforming to an extramusical narrative" any more than the tempo markings such as "Allegro con brio,"  "Marcia funebre: adagio assai,"  "Scherzo: allegro vivace" or "Allegro molto."

Tapiola is an evocation of the haunted Finnish forests, as indicated by the title (which always reminds me of Tapioca). It's not a symphony, but the composer's prescriptiveness is limited to the title of the work.
Don Juan was based very closely on the action of a play. I don't know if Strauss published a program, but I suspect aficionados will tell you that you need to know the story to get the most out of the music. I am not an aficionado, but I do know that the sheep in Don Quixote and the "trivial pursuits" of Sinfonia Domestica are fairly notorious.
Liszt cheated with Les Preludes, and only applied his program after writing the music! Liszt's most programmatic works are his least enjoyable, i.e. bloated junk like Faust.
Generally, the more a work's program is based on actions rather than feelings, the more problematic it becomes in musical terms, because the more removed from "pure" musical considerations.

[M forever]

But it is. A truly developed individual consciousness is essentially it's own universe, existing in a state completely independent of all external influences. This is what gives genius that "timeless" quality. The problem with program music is that the individual consciousness of the artist has to step aside to make space for an external entity, an entity dictated by a general consciousness which is shared by all those who lack a defined individuality of their own, so that the results are always artificial and arbitrary, albeit they may not be altogether unpleasant.

I am sorry to hear you had a difficult childhood, but blablaing stuff on the internet that you have read somewhere really isn't the way to cope with that. And it is really boring for other people.

[jochanaan]

Not on the things that truly matter, which is why one is greater then the other. 

Uh, let's not even GO there!

[scarpia]

Tapiola is an evocation of the haunted Finnish forests, as indicated by the title (which always reminds me of Tapioca). It's not a symphony, but the composer's prescriptiveness is limited to the title of the work.
Don Juan was based very closely on the action of a play. I don't know if Strauss published a program, but I suspect aficionados will tell you that you need to know the story to get the most out of the music. I am not an aficionado, but I do know that the sheep in Don Quixote and the "trivial pursuits" of Sinfonia Domestica are fairly notorious.
Liszt cheated with Les Preludes, and only applied his program after writing the music! Liszt's most programmatic works are his least enjoyable, i.e. bloated junk like Faust.
Generally, the more a work's program is based on actions rather than feelings, the more problematic it becomes in musical terms, because the more removed from "pure" musical considerations.

I am aware of the status of Tapiola as a symphonic poem, Sibelius even supplied a set of verses to vaguely define its program.  When I listen to it some passages are very specifically evokative.  One passage in particular strikes me as evoking a blizzard.  My point is that it doesn't make the music any poorer than Sibelius' overtly non-programatic music.   As far as Don Juan, I'm confused by your remarks.  The piece is based on some fragments of a poem that, as I learned on Wikipedia, were left unfinished by Lenau when he was committed to an asylum, and subsequently died.  Strauss was apparently interested in Lenau's poetic description of Don Juan's motives, rather than any particular action that takes place in Lenau's poem.  The music follows the generic Don Juan Story, vigorous invocation of Don Juan's character, several interludes which suggest seductions that achieve varying levels of success, a new vigorous Don Juan theme, music suggesting Don Juan's duel and subsequent death.  Whatever inspired Strauss, it is great music because the piece has a musical logic which allows the nominally extra-musical program to unfold.

Aside from factual issues, I see no substance to your argument, which seems to boil down to "program music is junk, and therefore it is bad."  I don't find it particularly persuasive.

[jochanaan]

I've noticed something on this thread: Several of those defending program music's validity have extensive performing and teaching experience, such as zamyrabyrd, M forever, and I.  (Although Mark Simon and karlhenning haven't weighed in, I know where they stand.)  Josquin and Henk, what is your experience?  Have you ever played in an orchestra?  School band?  Have you taught in schools or privately?  Have you studied music at the college/university level?

Just curious.

[Mark G. Simon]

I did weigh in on this thread fairly early on, but no one paid it much attention.

I have to say this is one of the stranger premises for a thread I've seen. Henk originally talked about "theatrical music", by which I thought he meant opera (he singled out Wagner, after all) and ballet. But everyone else decided it was about of absolute music vs. program music and have argued along those lines. This is a question which vexed the minds of people in Hanslick's day, but I thought the issue was settled long ago: as long as the music makes sense, who cares how the composer came up with it?

Curiously, out of the numerous symphonic poems of Dvorak, I find The Noonday Witch to be the most satisfying musically, and that is the programatically literal of the bunch. You can follow the story line from measure to measure if you choose. Or you can just listen to it as music and it's still coherent and thrilling.

[(poco) Sforzando]

I did weigh in on this thread fairly early on, but no one paid it much attention.

I have to say this is one of the stranger premises for a thread I've seen. Henk originally talked about "theatrical music", by which I thought he meant opera (he singled out Wagner, after all) and ballet. But everyone else decided it was about of absolute music vs. program music and have argued along those lines. This is a question which vexed the minds of people in Hanslick's day, but I thought the issue was settled long ago: as long as the music makes sense, who cares how the composer came up with it?

Curiously, out of the numerous symphonic poems of Dvorak, I find The Noonday Witch to be the most satisfying musically, and that is the programatically literal of the bunch. You can follow the story line from measure to measure if you choose. Or you can just listen to it as music and it's still coherent and thrilling.

Henk may have been somewhat metaphysical and vague, but he seemed to be concerned with "pure music," and the "truth" that "music shouldn't express anything except itself." Hence, rightly or wrongly, people started going off on program music.

[jochanaan]

I did weigh in on this thread fairly early on, but no one paid it much attention...

Oops! Sorry, Mark.

[M forever]

Curiously, out of the numerous symphonic poems of Dvorak, I find The Noonday Witch to be the most satisfying musically, and that is the programatically literal of the bunch. You can follow the story line from measure to measure if you choose. Or you can just listen to it as music and it's still coherent and thrilling.

That's a very good example. I actually listened to this and the other pieces based on folk tales by Erben for a long time without knowing what they are actually about (except for the titles, of course) and I enjoyed them immensely. Then when I finally read the programs and a little while later the actual Erben stories, I found that very interesting but it neither diminished nor really heightened my musical enjoyment. Because whatever the structural impulses and inspirations are, they are just very good music in the sense that they contain a lot of great musical ideas and these are also treated in a very inventive, inspired and interesting way. I think these are always the criteria for "good" music, whether it is based on or refers to a program or not.

I can't think of any piece of program music for which knowledge of the program is essential for its musical enjoyment - or of any pieces which are musically uninteresting, but which somehow get "upgraded" by a program, as if in this way, a composer could "cheat". If a piece is musically shallow, nobody cares for the program behind it anyway.

[eyeresist]

Aside from factual issues, I see no substance to your argument, which seems to boil down to "program music is junk, and therefore it is bad."  I don't find it particularly persuasive.

No, I'm not saying program is inherently junk! I'm a big fan of Smetana's Ma Vlast, for instance, and certainly don't think it's junk. What I said was "the more a work's program is based on action rather than feelings, the more problematic it becomes in musical terms, because the more removed from "pure" musical considerations", which I think in itself is a valid statement. Whether the composer manages to "bring it off" is something that varies from case to case, but I think the difficulty itself does exist, and is the reason, for instance, that suites from ballets are more popular in the concert hall than the unexpurgated works.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Curiously, out of the numerous symphonic poems of Dvorak, I find The Noonday Witch to be the most satisfying musically, and that is the programatically literal of the bunch. You can follow the story line from measure to measure if you choose. Or you can just listen to it as music and it's still coherent and thrilling.

Possibly because it divides naturally into four sections like a brief symphony in one movement - main allegro, slow movement, scherzo, and finale. All the same, I'd say there are many details in the work that make more sense if one knows the story.

[scarpia]

No, I'm not saying program is inherently junk! I'm a big fan of Smetana's Ma Vlast, for instance, and certainly don't think it's junk. What I said was "the more a work's program is based on action rather than feelings, the more problematic it becomes in musical terms, because the more removed from "pure" musical considerations", which I think in itself is a valid statement. Whether the composer manages to "bring it off" is something that varies from case to case, but I think the difficulty itself does exist, and is the reason, for instance, that suites from ballets are more popular in the concert hall than the unexpurgated works.

If there is anything problematic, or a difficulty, it is your problem and your difficulty, it has nothing to do the music.  The suite vs complete ballet strikes me as completely irrelevant.  I also don't see what ballet suites have to do with it.  Ballet music is not composed to be self sufficient, it is not program music, it is accompaniment.  The point of a suit is to distill it down to something which is self sufficient.

[M forever]

What I said was "the more a work's program is based on action rather than feelings, the more problematic it becomes in musical terms, because the more removed from "pure" musical considerations", which I think in itself is a valid statement.

That does actually sound pretty good as a statement at first, but it is really totally hollow. You don't know what individual composers base their musical invention on, whether it is "action" or "feelings" - or "feelings" evoked by "action" or "ideas". And it is really totally irrelevant anyway. The composition process, especially on the level of the people we like to call "genius" is something which we don't really understand. I can see why people think they can understand it easier by breaking it down into simplistic categories, but that doesn't work.

[zamyrabyrd]

Who would ever think that the music of Bach is extremely rich in extra-musical symbolism? This site is particularly fascinating: http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~tas3/bachindex.html

Even when I was studying, I was always put off by the idea that Bach was primarily mathematical, and that was supposedly the main value of learning his music. In fact, I don't think that "extra-musical" is the right term, since this is not program music that tells a story but intervals, chromatic movement, tunings, etc., the whole material of music, woven into the incredible tapestry of his life's work.

Here is a canon for example, if taken only on the note level would be interesting but superficial.  http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~tas3/crownofthorns.html

The intended sympbolism gives it meaning and transforms the linearity of the notes on paper to exciting, even gripping 3D.

ZB

[eyeresist]

If there is anything problematic, or a difficulty, it is your problem and your difficulty, it has nothing to do the music.  The suite vs complete ballet strikes me as completely irrelevant.  I also don't see what ballet suites have to do with it.  Ballet music is not composed to be self sufficient, it is not program music, it is accompaniment.  The point of a suit is to distill it down to something which is self sufficient.

Which I believe was the OP's complaint - theatrical music isn't self sufficient. I think it was my first post in this thread that derailed us onto the subject of program music. Theatrical music by definition partakes of non-musical elements, and there is an argument that such music is somehow "impure", if only in the sense of not being what we call "pure music". This can only be an academic argument. For myself, I find listening to theatrical music out of its dramatic context to be more difficult than listening to something like a symphony, which is (usually!) meant to stand without extramusical aids. Sometimes I also have a problem with program music, for this reason. Just call me Eduard Hanslick!

[scarpia]

Which I believe was the OP's complaint - theatrical music isn't self sufficient. I think it was my first post in this thread that derailed us onto the subject of program music. Theatrical music by definition partakes of non-musical elements, and there is an argument that such music is somehow "impure", if only in the sense of not being what we call "pure music". This can only be an academic argument. For myself, I find listening to theatrical music out of its dramatic context to be more difficult than listening to something like a symphony, which is (usually!) meant to stand without extramusical aids. Sometimes I also have a problem with program music, for this reason. Just call me Eduard Hanslick!

The OP referred to music composed in a "theatrical" way.  Obviously music which simply imitated events in a story would be uninteresting on its own.  My point is that a composer could write just as brilliant and self-sufficient a piece of music if he or she were inspired by an external program as not.  It doesn't mean that all program music is self-sufficient, but the best of it is.

[orbital]

Who would ever think that the music of Bach is extremely rich in extra-musical symbolism? This site is particularly fascinating: http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~tas3/bachindex.html

I would love to investigate this. Do you know which program should we have to listen to the .vcd files? That's the format that the clips are in.

[(poco) Sforzando]

The OP referred to music composed in a "theatrical" way.  Obviously music which simply imitated events in a story would be uninteresting on its own.  My point is that a composer could write just as brilliant and self-sufficient a piece of music if he or she were inspired by an external program as not.  It doesn't mean that all program music is self-sufficient, but the best of it is.

I believe the thread has developed in a way that has pitted "pure" (absolute, self-sufficient, non-referential) music against any music that implies an outside referent, whether that be program music, opera, or ballet music.

[Philoctetes]

I believe the thread has developed in a way that has pitted "pure" (absolute, self-sufficient, non-referential) music against any music that implies an outside referent, whether that be program music, opera, or ballet music.

Is there such 'pure' music?