Pletnev's Beethoven

[(poco) Sforzando]

One gimmick I liked was introduced by Benjamine Zander, who claimed that the fermatas in the first two phrases of the Allegro con Brio are not in the autograph score and were introduced by misguided editors.

Do you mean these fermatas?

[scarpia]

Do you mean these fermatas?

Sorry, I remembered wrong, it wasn't the fermatas.  Zander objected to the fact that the printed editions insert an extra measure between the unison statement of the theme and the continuation.  You will notice that in the manuscript the second violins enter in measure 5.  In the printed score the D is held for two measures and the second violins enter in measure 6.  Zander wants the opening to be played in tempo and have a continuous momentum, not a break between the "opening salvo" and the rest of the theme.

[jwinter]

You should have the Wand/NDR cycle though because it brings a lot of insights, but not the kind with which the conductor hits you in the face, the kind you can hear when you listen carefully, since Wand brings all the different parameters into balance more than most other conductors - which is much harder to arrive at than coming up with the kind of "surprises" offered by Pletnev.

Thanks for the advice.  Of course I now see that the Wand is back-ordered at several places, so I may pick it up soon lest it go out of print.  Likewise his Bruckner set -- I have his later live recordings with Berlin, but not the NDR set.

And here I just said a few posts ago that I was cutting back!      

[PerfectWagnerite]

Thanks for the advice.  Of course I now see that the Wand is back-ordered at several places, so I may pick it up soon lest it go out of print.  Likewise his Bruckner set -- I have his later live recordings with Berlin, but not the NDR set.

And here I just said a few posts ago that I was cutting back!      

You can get the Wand/Beethoven set here for under $30 including shipping"


As far as Wand's NDR Bruckner goes, I don't think he ever recorded symphonies 1 and 2 so it isn't "complete" in that sense. But the individual symphonies you can find pretty readily and cheaply on ebay or Amazon.

[jwinter]

You can get the Wand/Beethoven set here for under $30 including shipping"

Thankee kindlee!  I just checked Amazon for that last night, I must be slipping...

[scarpia]

Sorry, I remembered wrong.  Zander objected to the fact that the printed editions insert an extra measure between the unison statement of the theme and the continuation.  You will notice that in the manuscript the second violins enter in measure 5.  In the printed score the D is held for two measures and the second violins enter in measure 6.  Zander wants the opening to be played in tempo and have a continuous momentum, not a break between the "opening salvo" and the rest of the theme.

BTW, A Zander's discussion of Beethoven 5, 1st movement is linked http://www.mediafire.com/?iwwxwd4g0xn

It's excerpted from this, which is quite good.

[PerfectWagnerite]

Thankee kindlee!  I just checked Amazon for that last night, I must be slipping...

You were probably looking for the "newer" release like this one, which is the one I have. It says "remastered" using 96Khz or whatever, not sure how it sounds compared to the older, cheaper link I gave. In any case the seller, Newbury Comics is very very good and I have never had anything other than fabulous product and service from them.

[PerfectWagnerite]

Zander objected to the fact that the printed editions insert an extra measure between the unison statement of the theme and the continuation.  You will notice that in the manuscript the second violins enter in measure 5.  In the printed score the D is held for two measures and the second violins enter in measure 6.  Zander wants the opening to be played in tempo and have a continuous momentum, not a break between the "opening salvo" and the rest of the theme.

For the record Zander did object to the extra measure between the unison statement of the opening motif and its continuation, but not for the reason you said (and I've italicized that above). The objection from Zander is that the extra measure is an extra measure of rest, which makes the pause between the opening motif and its continuation longer than it ought to be. You can clearly hear that in the musical example he gave.

However, Zander also miscalculated in saying that the continuation of the theme should have its final note held longer than the first fermata as clearly indicated in the score. You can hear him say that starting at about 9:10 into the audio clip you gave. Presumably the "score" he is referring to looks something like this one:



where the D in measure 4 is one bar longer than the E-flat in measure 2. Now if you look at Sforzando's posted manuscript the D in measure 4 is exactly the same length as the E-flat in measure 2. So where did Zander get the idea that the D should be longer than the E-flat in duration?

[scarpia]

For the record Zander did object to the extra measure between the unison statement of the opening motif and its continuation, but not for the reason you said (and I've italicized that above). The objection from Zander is that the extra measure is an extra measure of rest, which makes the pause between the opening motif and its continuation longer than it ought to be. You can clearly hear that in the musical example he gave.

However, Zander also miscalculated in saying that the continuation of the theme should have its final note held longer than the first fermata as clearly indicated in the score. You can hear him say that starting at about 9:10 into the audio clip you gave. Presumably the "score" he is referring to looks something like this one:



where the D in measure 4 is one bar longer than the E-flat in measure 2. Now if you look at Sforzando's posted manuscript the D in measure 4 is exactly the same length as the E-flat in measure 2. So where did Zander get the idea that the D should be longer than the E-flat in duration?

I'm not sure what part of that you think I disagree with.  I found Zander's reasoning somewhat fuzzy, despite the authoritative sounding British accent.  However, the results are good (i.e., the proper recording, which does observe Beethoven's metronome markings, is very enjoyable to listen to).

[(poco) Sforzando]

The "extra measure" was introduced in the first printed edition and has always been retained in published scores. I haven't yet heard or read Zander first-hand on this, but how does he explain the fact that the same "extra measure" pattern is not found just in the opening bars but repeated four other places in the movement? The earliest printed editions of Beethoven's scores unquestionably had their share of mistakes, as the composer was well aware, but since the alleged "mistake" occurs each time the pattern recurs, it is just as possible the composer added the measure before printing as a way of giving greater weight and duration to the second fermata.

[PerfectWagnerite]

I found Zander's reasoning somewhat fuzzy, despite the authoritative sounding British accent.  However, the results are good (i.e., the proper recording, which does observe Beethoven's metronome markings, is very enjoyable to listen to).

If an accent is authoritive wouldn't you think a German accent would be more authoritive than a British accent? Anyway I am not sure what special insight it is to observe Beethoven's metronome markings. THe recording was made in 1998. Just to compare Norrington/LCP was made in 1988, Gardiner/ORR was made in 1991-1993 and the Goodman/Hanover set from 1982-1988 all of which observe Beethoven's metronome markings. If Zander thinks he brings anything special to the table by following the metronome marking he is some 5-15 years behind schedule.

Good clip though, thanks for posting. His best talk might be the one where he talks about how to conduct Mahler's 9th. The cd even comes with the first page of the score.

[scarpia]

The "extra measure" was introduced in the first printed edition and has always been retained in published scores. I haven't yet heard or read Zander first-hand on this, but how does he explain the fact that the same "extra measure" pattern is not found just in the opening bars but repeated four other places in the movement? The earliest printed editions of Beethoven's scores unquestionably had their share of mistakes, as the composer was well aware, but since the alleged "mistake" occurs each time the pattern recurs, it is just as possible the composer added the measure before printing as a way of giving greater weight and duration to the second fermata.

I'm not advocating for the quality of Zander's scholarship, in my opinion it is only interesting to the extent that his recording performance is well done.

It did not take much poking around to find out that the first edition of the symphony (in the form of orchestral parts), by Breitkopf and Hartel, did not have the extra bars.  Only the second engraving, published the following year, had the extra measures, as did the first edition of the score.   The extra measures are penciled into the hand copy of the score that B&H used as the basis of the engraving.  The most likely explanation is that Beethoven requested that they be added after performing the symphony, which would seem to vacate Zander's claims (except that I like it better that way, regardless of what Beethoven wanted).



A Discrepancy in Beethoven, Paul Hirsch, Music & Letters, Vol. 19, No. 3 (Jul., 1938), pp. 265-267

[eyeresist]

It did not take much poking around to find out that the first edition of the symphony (in the form of orchestral parts), by Breitkopf and Hartel, did not have the extra bars.  Only the second engraving, published the following year, had the extra measures, as did the first edition of the score.   The extra measures are penciled into the hand copy of the score that B&H used as the basis of the engraving.  The most likely explanation is that Beethoven requested that they be added after performing the symphony, which would seem to vacate Zander's claims (except that I like it better that way, regardless of what Beethoven wanted).

Thanks for this post and preceding discussion. The provenance of print "corrections" seems a very interesting topic - I don't suppose there is an easily accessible book available on this? (Beethoven or more general)

[(poco) Sforzando]

I'm not advocating for the quality of Zander's scholarship, in my opinion it is only interesting to the extent that his recording performance is well done.

It did not take much poking around to find out that the first edition of the symphony (in the form of orchestral parts), by Breitkopf and Hartel, did not have the extra bars.  Only the second engraving, published the following year, had the extra measures, as did the first edition of the score.   The extra measures are penciled into the hand copy of the score that B&H used as the basis of the engraving.  The most likely explanation is that Beethoven requested that they be added after performing the symphony, which would seem to vacate Zander's claims (except that I like it better that way, regardless of what Beethoven wanted).



A Discrepancy in Beethoven, Paul Hirsch, Music & Letters, Vol. 19, No. 3 (Jul., 1938), pp. 265-267

Thanks. My source did not mention the B+H parts. Is the M+L article you mention available online? In any case, there does not seem to be any controversy regarding the authenticity of the added bars. (Unlike the scherzo, where there still seems to be some dispute as to whether to play it as ABABA or ABA. But that's another issue.)

[scarpia]

Thanks. My source did not mention the B+H parts. Is the M+L article you mention available online? In any case, there does not seem to be any controversy regarding the authenticity of the added bars. (Unlike the scherzo, where there still seems to be some dispute as to whether to play it as ABABA or ABA. But that's another issue.)

The on-line version requires a subscription to view past the first page.
http://www.jstor.org/pss/727532